J.E. Sawyer On Fallout Firearms

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J.E. Sawyer On Fallout Firearms

Post by Mad Max RW »

<strong>[ -> N/A]</strong>

<html><body><P>J.E. Sawyer, everybody&#8217;s favorite Black Islander (one of the few left standing), <A HREF=http://forums.interplay.com/viewtopic.p ... 014#457014 target=_blank>discusses</A> weapon categories, statistics, and other stuff that might appear in Fallout 3.</P><blockquote><em>My general thoughts on the firearm issues are spread over a number of threads, but can be summarized as follows:


* Two firearm categories: small guns (1-handed) and big guns (2-handed). This means a laser pistol would be a small gun and a plasma rifle would be a big gun.


* Weapon categories should do different things, not be inherently "better" than each other. Thus, the following proposals:


* Big guns take up both item slots. If you want to switch to another weapon while using a big gun, you're spending 4 AP to go into inventory. Suck it up.


* Small guns, generally speaking, use lower caliber (and lower damage) rounds, but can be placed in one-hand. Though this doesn't mean OMG DUAL WIELD EVERY DAY, it means that you can switch back and forth between two types of guns, or a gun and grenades, etc. without needing to go into inventory.


* Allow people to use two identical small guns simultaneously at large penalties. Give access to a high small guns requirement perk that lowers these penalties.


* Let big guns be appropriately accurate at long ranges, but disallow the ability to make called shots with big guns when within one hex of an enemy.


* Do not make plasma > laser > conventional. Rather, make each weapon type fill a niche. Conventional weapons are good for shooting things at normal gun battle ranges, doing ballistic damage to unarmored, fleshy targets. Plasma weapons are shorter range weapons that do a high amount of heat damage and can be charged for more damaging single attacks (even without making a called shot), thereby blowing out thresholds on demand. Laser weapons are long range weapons with exceptional accuracy. They might even do less damage than a conventional weapon, but they are perfect for a sniper making targeted attacks.


* Make the chance of critical failure based off of the reliability/complexity of the weapon. Why do people still use revolvers today even though they can get a higher ROF from autoloaders?


I'm sure you guys can think of other ways to balance these elements out. The point is that I am not as concerned with how things seem as much as how things are. If you tell me that dual-wielding pistols "seems" unrealistic but I know that small guns "really" suck, I'm more concerned about the latter.</em></blockquote><P>There&#8217;s more talk on the <A HREF=http://forums.interplay.com/viewtopic.p ... c&start=75 target=_blank>Interplay Forum</A>.</P></body></html>
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Post by Mad Max RW »

I think it's funny how he literally hijacked a "goodbye MCA" thread and wasn't threatened by one of the moderators.
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Post by Megatron »

That's more or less what I thought (minus akimbo gunz lewl), though I'd like to see his ideas for balancing out the useless skills.

Also mabye seeing how reloading takes a shorter time to fire a pistol at point-blank range should be TACKLED :eivl:?
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Post by Smiley »

* Allow people to use two identical small guns simultaneously at large penalties. Give access to a high small guns requirement perk that lowers these penalties.
I've never understood the *EXTREME* disadvantedge of using two automatics at the same time, that is, if used against the same target.

I've tried using two guns, some automatic or another, and a .357 shortbarreled magnum.

Needless to say the revolver had somewhat of a kick, so using that for akimbo-style would prove difficult, if not impossible.

The kick on the automatic seemed much lighter, and I'm not hindered in using the gun in either hand(gun-ambidextrous or whatever), so I wager it shouldn't be that much trouble to hit a target, if you aligned both weapons horizontally and just fired through.

I've never tried it of course, and I doubt it's allowed at a firering range :lol:


Of course, it *is* a game so it's better balanced if you gave it a huge minus to your aiming skills.


I wonder if thoughts like these cross developers' minds when they make up rules for games, or if they just shoot from their hip, taking a guess.

Seems like the latter in most cases.....
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Post by PiP »

I thought Ausir was going to post this. Oh well, Max was faster.

On the one hand Big Guns take both hands, but on the other hand why not have a sniper rifle on your back and swap them? Just like the animation indicated...
Generally, having few gun-skills will let you spend your SP on fewer skills, hence they will reach agreeable level faster. I don't think shooting a plasma rifle requires a very different skill than shooting a regular rifle. You basically need to know how to handle a big gun and be strong enough to carry it, so these new skills don't sound that bad. Obviously you'll need another skill to fix such a gun, but it's a different cattle of fish.
I just hope they make some powerful long-distance single-shot gun.
Last edited by PiP on Mon Jun 16, 2003 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by atoga »

So what skill will govern energy weapons? Will they fall under small/big guns based on size? I must say these changes aren't too brilliant, Small Guns was an overpowered skill in Fallouts 1 and 2, and it looks like Big Guns will be a really overpowered skill in Fallout 3.
suppose you're thinking about a plate of shrimp. suddenly somebody will say like 'plate' or 'shrimp' or 'plate of shrimp', out of the blue, no explanation.
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Post by Hammer »

I've never understood the *EXTREME* disadvantedge of using two automatics at the same time, that is, if used against the same target.
You're full of shit Smiley, try firing a pistol one handed at a target 25 yards away and tell me your shot grouping. Why the hell do you think the militarys moved from 1 handed, arms out shooting to two handed shooting styles? Using two hands on your weapon really increases your stability and accuracy, put one firearm in each hand and you throw off your balance, your ability to focus on pulling the trigger ever so smoothly and gentle, and last but not least... your ability to get a good sight picture.

You been watching way to many movies kid, let's stick with one pistol shall we?
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Post by PiP »

atoga wrote:So what skill will govern energy weapons? Will they fall under small/big guns based on size? I must say these changes aren't too brilliant, Small Guns was an overpowered skill in Fallouts 1 and 2, and it looks like Big Guns will be a really overpowered skill in Fallout 3.
I guess you mean Big Guns will cover far too many weapons. Well, I must admit I've also had that feeling. However, you can limit the 'power' of this skill in some ways: (really) Big Guns will be very heavy (and take much space), will waste a lot of ammo, and will take both item slots. (and maybe they will be scarce?) Altogether, this 'overpowerdness' may have some reasonable limits (if this ain't self-contradictory :P)
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Post by atoga »

PiP wrote:
atoga wrote:So what skill will govern energy weapons? Will they fall under small/big guns based on size? I must say these changes aren't too brilliant, Small Guns was an overpowered skill in Fallouts 1 and 2, and it looks like Big Guns will be a really overpowered skill in Fallout 3.
I guess you mean Big Guns will cover far too many weapons. Well, I must admit I've also had that feeling. However, you can limit the 'power' of this skill in some ways: (really) Big Guns will be very heavy (and take much space), will waste a lot of ammo, and will take both item slots. (and maybe they will be scarce?) Altogether, this 'overpowerdness' may have some reasonable limits (if this ain't self-contradictory :P)
But still. Taking a single skill to learn all that stuff is quite unbalanced. And in Fallout, one big gun is usually all you need.
suppose you're thinking about a plate of shrimp. suddenly somebody will say like 'plate' or 'shrimp' or 'plate of shrimp', out of the blue, no explanation.
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Post by axelgreese »

atoga wrote:So what skill will govern energy weapons? Will they fall under small/big guns based on size? I must say these changes aren't too brilliant, Small Guns was an overpowered skill in Fallouts 1 and 2, and it looks like Big Guns will be a really overpowered skill in Fallout 3.
they could make it modifide by a science/tech skill, thus a big guns expert with a finer knowledge of electronics would be able to handle a big electrical weapon.

*shrug*
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Post by PiP »

atoga wrote: And in Fallout, one big gun is usually all you need.
Not any more, it seems: sticking to a big gun you would run out of ammo and your gun would not be appropriate to destroy all types of targets (laser-long distance; plasma-short; regular-unarmoured); a wider scope of big guns in your inventory would be impossible due to their wieght/size. So, in order to be versatile and thus successful in all types of fire-fight, you'll probably need a BIG gun, a sniper weapon, and st leat one small gun (e.g. SMG). I guess it's not that bad (the choice of the skills) but I can uundeerstand your doubts.
One more thing: possibly non-combat skills will play an even bigger role in Fo3, so we just might not need so many gun-skills.. (I'm gonna use'em anyway :evil: )
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Post by Smiley »

Hammer wrote:You're full of shit Smiley
Let's try to keep it on a friendly level, shall we?
try firing a pistol one handed at a target 25 yards away and tell me your shot grouping
Why can't people just use the metric system... *sighs*
Anyway, undoubtedly, it wouldn't be the best.
Why the hell do you think the militarys moved from 1 handed, arms out shooting to two handed shooting styles?
I'm not entirely sure I understood that sentence correctly.
Rephrase pls? o.O;
Using two hands on your weapon really increases your stability and accuracy, put one firearm in each hand and you throw off your balance, your ability to focus on pulling the trigger ever so smoothly and gentle, and last but not least... your ability to get a good sight picture.
I see. I never did use two hands on a gun. And now, suddenly, I understood you last sentence... sorry I thought you were suddenly talking about two-handed weapons, like rifles...! >_<
I based my theory on one hand shooting, not on the two-handed style...
Since it's a one-handed style that's used in Fallout, agreed?

Like I wrote before though, I think it's way to awkward to compare realism and games, even in the terms of firering a gun.

The point of using a gun in each hand in the game would be to do more damage, whereas, in reality, it'd make more sense to pop a single well-placed bullet in the head(even though it'd be difficult in just about any situation), and not to fire randomly with two guns.

I understand the point, that firering onehanded is less precise than two handed, and that it might prove even more difficult to use two at the same time, but I disagree that a *large* penalty should be applied.
More likely, the aiming-feature should be disabled when using two guns at the same time, but the chance of hitting the target should be just as good.
You been watching way to many movies kid, let's stick with one pistol shall we?
hmm through-out my statements, I never said I was for or against akimbo-style shooting in the game...

Also, I based my theory on logic and what little experience I had, not from movies ;)

I think it's a "cool" factor to use two guns, not an effective one.
I think the style, or mode, should be allowed, definately, I also think that it should be well thought through... I'd like to hear the "why's" and "how's" of their thinking when deciding things like this, because I get the feeling they don't think it through all this much.
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Post by Spazmo »

Way to completely ignore the issue at hand, Smiley.

The idea of all big guns taking up two slots kinda bothers me. It makes perfect sense when dealing with rocket launchers, miniguns and the like, but a simple rifle isn't so heavy as to take two slots. It's all really a question of what qualifies as a big gun. I don't think stuff like the aforementioned hunting rifle or even the AK-112 should take two slots. These guns are designed to be as lightweight as possible and easy to use by a mobile soldier, as opposed to the heavy artillery of miniguns which is just supposed to shoot bullets at things.
How appropriate. You fight like a cow.

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Post by Smiley »

Way to completely ignore the issue at hand, Smiley.
I didn't bring it all that off-topic. I'm discussing wether or not I believe that J.E's example of the akimbo-style make sense, just like you're doing with the two-hand slot-thing.

I have, imo, a better suggestion. I think it should be possible to put, say, a pistol in the second slot, but it should cost, one or two ap's to shift over, since the gun is in your belt or somewhere else.

If we're going to put the two-hand factor in this, like Hammer suggested, by putting greater aim or bonus on a two-hand-wielded gun, you could have that bonus removed one wielded in one.
Because you're busy holding the rifle in your other hand.
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Post by Hammer »

Any automatic weapon weighing over 20lbs should be classified as a "big gun" in my opinion.
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Post by Smiley »

Hammer wrote:Any automatic weapon weighing over 20lbs should be classified as a "big gun" in my opinion.
Even though a rifle weighs under 10kg, it's still not possible to use it in one hand... That's probably what he meant, but what do you think about my suggestion for that?

Because like Spazmo stated, having a rifle take up two slots is kind of overkill...
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Post by Spazmo »

For us laymen, how much does an M16 weigh? An AK47? You average hunting rifle? I know these guns won't be in FO3, but I figure it's a fairly good reference, at least in terms of weight.
How appropriate. You fight like a cow.

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Post by axelgreese »

lol

saint > YUO
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Post by SuperH »

Ok, who the hell cares if it's realistic or not?

As was brought up in the iply forums, a single person holding a minigun is far from realistic... at all...

And before any of you go and say "OH GUNZ AKIMBO INS'T FALLOT! IT"S HERESY!!!!11" : http://www.justinsweet.com/images/PAINTINGS/FALLOU1.JPG
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Post by Smiley »

And before any of you go and say "OH GUNZ AKIMBO INS'T FALLOT! IT"S HERESY!!!!11" : http://www.justinsweet.com/images/PAINTINGS/FALLOU1.JPG
xD Good one!

hmm the only mini-gun I remember being hand-held is in Predator.. God I love that piece of metal! ^^
Quite small compared to the fallout one though.
Or..?
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