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requiem_for_a_starfury
Hero of the Wastes
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Joined: 29 Oct 2002
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 8:58 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Before my HD troubles I had set up a test map with a minefield using 50 mines, the minefield was surrounded by 4 narrow zones and when the player passed through one of these the first mines would be moved into position. Inside the minefield were smaller zones, some were around the areas where the mines might appear others in the gaps between the mines. When the player passed through one of these zones, either to defuse a mine or avoid one, they set the next 5 mines into position. The zones used a simple condition, human has more than 0 alive, which gave a mission variable a value of true. The mission variables would move 5 mines at a time, each mine had 4 possible locations they could appear at. Outside the 4 outer zones I set 3 mines, 2 live and 1 visbile unactivated mine, hoping this would trick the player into saving before they set off the first triggers. Even knowing the locations of the waypoints and zones I still had trouble remembering all the possible patterns for the mines. And unless I followed the exact same path through the minefield it appeared different each time.

It made for a tough minefield to cross, with a few more complex conditions I think I could of created an area that would be different each time no matter how many times someone saved & reloaded.
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axelgreese
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 10:07 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

requiem_for_a_starfury wrote:
It made for a tough minefield to cross, with a few more complex conditions I think I could of created an area that would be different each time no matter how many times someone saved & reloaded.


The problem with mines though is that, when disarming them you can fail and get yourself killed. Main reason why i just shot them. If you could make it have less permanent effects then that sounds like a fun element to add to the game.
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Jimmyjay86
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 10:20 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Nah, you need the risk of death in the game. This isn't Mario brothers. Give the player the option of taking a risk by dying in a minefield or dying in a front-on assault.
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axelgreese
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 10:22 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Jimmyjay86 wrote:
Nah, you need the risk of death in the game. This isn't Mario brothers. Give the player the option of taking a risk by dying in a minefield or dying in a front-on assault.


That would just make him save and reload. Which makes all the work bulding the mine field kinda pointless.
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OnTheBounce
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 10:25 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

paynetothemax wrote:
That would just make him save and reload. Which makes all the work bulding the mine field kinda pointless.


That could be said of anything in FoT. If a player SFLs his way through a frontal assault, relying on luck to bulldoze his way through a really tricky defensive setup then the mapper's work in setting up the frontal assault is pointless.

OTB
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axelgreese
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 10:44 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

OnTheBounce wrote:
paynetothemax wrote:
That would just make him save and reload. Which makes all the work bulding the mine field kinda pointless.


That could be said of anything in FoT. If a player SFLs his way through a frontal assault, relying on luck to bulldoze his way through a really tricky defensive setup then the mapper's work in setting up the frontal assault is pointless.

OTB


True. But then again, when fighting a battle, it isn't purly chance that I"ll win. In some respects disarming mine is a chance based thing. Of course with a higher skill in traps it's less of a danger, but even with the highest skill there's still a chance of a fail and then a dead trapper.

Of course finding an alternitive to it (that was still fun) would require one to be really clever.
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requiem_for_a_starfury
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 11:01 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

paynetothemax wrote:
True. But then again, when fighting a battle, it isn't purly chance that I"ll win. In some respects disarming mine is a chance based thing. Of course with a higher skill in traps it's less of a danger, but even with the highest skill there's still a chance of a fail and then a dead trapper.

Of course finding an alternitive to it (that was still fun) would require one to be really clever.
There's always a chance in a frontal assault that your opponent will score a critical hit, and people are forgetting that you don't need to disarm mines, you just need to spot them. You'd only need to disarm them if they were so tightly packed that they blocked your path.

The mines I had set up and probably will set up were of various difficulties making some harder to spot than others, plus the whole point of what I was trying to do is set up a situation that will change every time you reload, making minefields more insidious.
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axelgreese
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 11:31 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
You'd only need to disarm them if they were so tightly packed that they blocked your path.


Yeah but what you were saying would force you to deal with them, or atleast that was my interpretation. Making the trap skill more valuable.

Quote:
Of course finding an alternitive to it (that was still fun) would require one to be really clever.
There's always a chance in a frontal assault that your opponent will score a critical hit, and people are forgetting that you don't need to disarm mines, you just need to spot them[/quote]

But still it's a different thing (maybe only in my eyes), whenever I had mines in my way, I shot them, when I first played FO:T I tried to disarm them which required me to save and reload, there were just too many mines for a unskilled (at that point in the game) trapper to not fail at least once, and i didn't like the idea of losing my trapper. What I interpreted what you suggested as was to make it so that they couldn't just shoot the mines, they would have to deal with them with their trapper. Whcih places a higher import on your trapper, which also means the idea of losing him to a random critical failure while disarming is even less appealing. Thus where x= you have to deal with the mines and y = you have to use your trapper then x+y=save and reload. So if there was another option it would make it a very good thing.

The only thing I can think of right now is to give the trapper two choices when disarming 1)disarm the mine, which allows you to reuse it later or 2) detonate the mine, which allows you to dispose of it in a safe and controlled manner. With the pros and cons being detonateing much much easier but it's noisier and you can't reuse the mine, while disarming is quieter albiet more dangerous with the added benifit of reusing the mine.

Quote:
The mines I had set up and probably will set up were of various difficulties making some harder to spot than others, plus the whole point of what I was trying to do is set up a situation that will change every time you reload, making minefields more insidious.


that sounds like a save and reload situation the only probelm being that it'd be much more annoying to save and reload. so basically I lose my best trapper, then I just eat it and go on without him. Now that's something I really wouldn't like doing.
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requiem_for_a_starfury
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:16 am Reply with quoteBack to top

paynetothemax wrote:

Yeah but what you were saying would force you to deal with them, or atleast that was my interpretation. Making the trap skill more valuable.
I'd make some mines really difficult to spot, but I wouldn't position them so that you couldn't get past them without disarming them. That's what door traps are for. : )

paynetothemax wrote:
But still it's a different thing (maybe only in my eyes), whenever I had mines in my way, I shot them, when I first played FO:T I tried to disarm them which required me to save and reload, there were just too many mines for a unskilled (at that point in the game) trapper to not fail at least once, and i didn't like the idea of losing my trapper. What I interpreted what you suggested as was to make it so that they couldn't just shoot the mines, they would have to deal with them with their trapper. Whcih places a higher import on your trapper, which also means the idea of losing him to a random critical failure while disarming is even less appealing. Thus where x= you have to deal with the mines and y = you have to use your trapper then x+y=save and reload. So if there was another option it would make it a very good thing.
What I'm trying to do, or should say would like to do is create a situation where the player couldn't just save the game, bulldoze their way through the minefield, see where all the mines are and then reload and then just detonate the mines, or avoid them entirely. I also want to make it less likely that the mines would be set off prematurely by friendly fire from the defenders before the player even got to the minefield.

paynetothemax wrote:
The only thing I can think of right now is to give the trapper two choices when disarming 1)disarm the mine, which allows you to reuse it later or 2) detonate the mine, which allows you to dispose of it in a safe and controlled manner. With the pros and cons being detonateing much much easier but it's noisier and you can't reuse the mine, while disarming is quieter albiet more dangerous with the added benifit of reusing the mine.
Personally I think that using grenades or force fire to clear mines is a valid tactic if the player is willing to use up their ammo or forfeit the element of surprise, but I'd like to make the player react to the minefield realistically either avoiding the mines entirely or sending one player ahead to mark out (discover) the positions of the mines so that the rest of the party could take a slow cautious route through the minefield.

paynetothemax wrote:
that sounds like a save and reload situation the only probelm being that it'd be much more annoying to save and reload. so basically I lose my best trapper, then I just eat it and go on without him. Now that's something I really wouldn't like doing.
Whenever I find a minefield I set my characters to prone or crouch so that they don't just run ahead and step on a mine before they have a chance to spot it, the only times I try to disarm them is if I want the mines or to clear a path, say for a vehicle. I'm not trying to force the player to bite the bullet and suck down their losses, but to find other tactics than save & reload. Though I can't make the minefield totally random, once the triggers have been fired and the mines are in place they stay that way, so if you saved every so often going through the minefield you'd be able to reload and the mines that had been placed on the map would still be in the same position. You'd be able to save before attempting to disarm each mine, if your character was killed you'd still be able to reload and try and defuse the mine again, until you had succeeded.

I suppose there is one other reason to disarm the mines as you go, if you were trying to out flank a defensive position by sneaking up on them through the minefield you'd risk being caught in the middle of the mines if detected, which would be as bad as taking cover behind some explosive barrels. : )


Last edited by requiem_for_a_starfury on Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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axelgreese
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:01 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I think I just misunderstoond. Sounds good.
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