Oblivion vs Fallout 3

Since Bethesda decided to make Fallout 3, we figured we might as well have a forum about it.
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Oblivion vs Fallout 3

Post by goatunit »

I'm a fan of Bethesda. If I like any game more than Morrowind, it would have to be either Medieval Total War 2 or Chrono Trigger, but it's a close call.

Oblivion wasn't quite up to par, in my opinion. Still, I just beat it yesterday and I enjoyed it. I guess I'm the kind of person, though, who doesn't play the game sold to me. I add a lot to my experience through imagination.

Anyway, having beaten Oblivion, I started looking around for FO3 info to see how long I had to wait, and came across this forum. I honestly don't understand the debate. There wasn't going to the a Fallout 3. Now there is. Thank God.

The strength of Black Isle's games were never in the engine. The focus was never on the mechanics, hence their continuing to release Infinity-engine games long after the system was considered obsolete. We all loved the Infinity-engine, but shit. Fallout 2 is still there for you guys to play. Who are these dumbasses who want Fallout 2 part 2?

The opportunity to experience the wasteland in first person is something that I look forward to. To see the radioactive glow at the crater-dented horizon instead of just being told that it's there. I don't know. I don't give a damn. If it sucks, oh well. If it rules, great. Nobody is putting a gun to our heads to make us play a game we hate.

You guys need to realize that your problem isn't that the Bethesda take on Fallout is going to be First-Psrson. It's that Interplay scrapped Van Buren, which would've been a great game as well.

I have a real problem relating to dudes who find an experience they enjoy and just want to continue it ad nauseum. Change is good. A fresh interpretation of an old favorite is good. The fruits of it may not be sweet, but it's a noble pursuit. So yeah, I look forward to seeing the Fallout setting in a new way. It'll be too bad if it's not fun, but I'm sure it'll beat digging a ditch.

Anyone who isn't grateful to Bethesda for keeping Fallout alive in some form simply doesn't love Fallout as much as the rest of us.
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Post by atoga »

goatunit wrote:I have a real problem relating to dudes who find an experience they enjoy and just want to continue it ad nauseum. Change is good. A fresh interpretation of an old favorite is good. The fruits of it may not be sweet, but it's a noble pursuit. So yeah, I look forward to seeing the Fallout setting in a new way. It'll be too bad if it's not fun, but I'm sure it'll beat digging a ditch.
word, i mostly agree with you in that strict adherence to what is considered fallout 'canon' is taking things too far, as is demanding a 'classic' things such as an isometric viewpoint, strict tb combat, etc. certainly a lot of things could be improved. it sure would be nice to see the wasteland fully rendered in 3d with particle fx galore.

of course, 'keeping fallout alive' is a pretty washy notion. would you say that fallout: brotherhood of steel was keeping fallout alive? most would argue that it did so only in the most superficial way. in fact, it made a mockery of most of the setting & content of the game. surely you must agree that it's possible to butcher a series? and if bethsoft neglects critical things such as character development, freedom of choice, the whole retrofuture feeling, etc. or pushes it too far so that it's just an action game with a hint of roleplaying on top (sorta like fallout: tactics) it will indeed be butchered.
suppose you're thinking about a plate of shrimp. suddenly somebody will say like 'plate' or 'shrimp' or 'plate of shrimp', out of the blue, no explanation.
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Post by goatunit »

You're right, of course. They could butcher it. Fallout 3 could suck. Brotherhood of Steel looks like it sucks, but I haven't played it. I played Tactics and thought it was fun. I didn't beat it. I didn't have the immersive Fallout experience like with 1 and 2, but I spent a Saturday on it and have yet to regret it.

I don't see how the Fallout-as-Oblivion scenario, even in its worst possible manifestation, approaches some of the dumbass shit Interplay was reaching for in its final days. Brotherhood of Steel was an attempt to cash in on the license while facing bankruptcy. Bethesda has fished the license from the waste can and I just can't see the travesty in that.

I don't think it's a ploy for a quick buck. Maybe I'm wrong, but Bethesda is rolling high. They're not cashing out their chips.

Anyway, I wish an isomorphic-view game could come out and compete today. I'd rather have a graphically simple game so that the developers' time could be spent fully on the other avenues, but it'll be awhile before we see games like that again. In the meantime, FALLOUT! God damn. I can't wait.
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Post by Frater Perdurabo »

I agree with you mostly, however, like atoga mentioned, there are a few things that we need to stick to. IMO TB combat isn't even all that important. Look at Tactics. The option for real time combat was not what made Tactics crap, it was the rest of it.
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Post by johnnygothisgun »

atoga wrote:[critical things such as character development, freedom of choice
for me this is the number one issue. those are the two things bethesda seems incapable of doing correctly, so i think apprehension in the community is understandable
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The Song Remains The Same

Post by 4too »

The Song Remains The Same






goatunit:
... I have a real problem relating to dudes who find an experience they enjoy and just want to continue it ad nauseum. ...

Pious missionary, free lance or scripted? Are these your own sentiments or points of discussion from another's list? Just asking. No reply necessary.

But.

Are you one of the multitude that keeps playing FP games, action rpg's, shooters, and fantasy theme games, BUGS AND ALL, ALL PLATFORMS, over and over and over, and then journeys here to proselytize to a forum about your delusions of change?

Morrowind, Oblivion, are you hooked on a high ""AND JUST WANT TO CONTINUE IT AD NAUSEUM""? Your words not mine.

Oh, one was shinier than the other window floating in space, .....

Do you get my drift?

Are you for real or a hypocrite?

One addicted to the main stream commercial products plays the same game over and over. Repackaged conformity. Are successful formulas, successfully reenacted 'change', or the fashion of yesterday in a different color? IS the only real player alternative that the zipper is moved from the crotch to the buttocks?

Oblivion in FO clothes is that what will make you so happy - happy ?

I should be less rhetorical, less the projector of negative stereo types, but goatunit speaks, in, stereotypes. So how else can one relate to being profiled and reviled.

Do you get my drift?

Are you for real or a hypocrite?





I do see your enthusiasm.

Your enthusiasm is appreciated , but your seemingly unconditional surrender to commercially produced entreatment as ""all good"" is stereotypical of change agents that parachute into these forums that really do not advocate change but preach conformity.

Perhaps as this thread spins out your personal experience will shine through and your over all positive intent will abandon profiles and stereotypes.





FO orthodoxy has more myth than substance, more fashion statement than life style.

FO orthodoxy may be grounded in the mix of features and game play that some how resulted in FO 1 and FO 2.

Some how? The FO's in the history of computer gaming appear to be happy accidents.

Single player RPG games that have evoked a shared experience between thousands and thousands of game players. Uncommon.

So all enthusiasm about what is now called, too often, immersion, in the FO's is appreciated.

What feature would one take out, what feature does one add that might, not, unbalance the sum of the parts?

That's the juggling of parts that BethSoft has taken on.

Real time theatrical juggling is hardly imaginable by anal, 2 D parabolic, or 3 D time and motion assembly lines.
One can suppose four dimensional dynamics in this game crafting process, and lurking in the wings, a 5th dimension of prestidigitation - a.k.a. marketing ready for the hard sell. All these parts will be presented as a whole when the game is released.

Possible that FO 3 will stand on it's own. How that will look, and play, as a - gaming - whole is an unknown.

Not a lot of emotional attachment there, on how FO 3 lands in the box.
Worse case, just another ... FPS, or action (small) r-PG. If FO 3 conforms to the Nex Gen profile for mass appeal, market success, nothing changes, not even the millions of dollars churned by manipulation.

BethSoft will most likely have a game in the box, and for certain a ''game'' in marketing the game.
If Oblivion is the standard, then the total media blitz will DEMAND we like , NO: DEMAND WE LOVE, what we are told is in the box, regardless one's personal experience.
No room for compromise.
No room for reality.
No room for the individual.

Missionary 'change' agents will parachute into forums and market the latest in the BethSoft party line.

A mass cultural movement of compliance and submission, dramatized by the same Social Realism that markets real and imagined revolutions.
The funniest parodies of the Oblivion mass cultural frenzy featured Social Realist paintings of Mao's Red Guards waving copies of the game box.
We know what a 'brave new world' that was.


My tone?

I address the small con here, and the Big Con out there in the mass market, the mass media.

When profiled and reviled as a stereo type, how else should I reply?
Why should I be a 'Better Person' than the profiler, the reviler?

If we are good than BethSoft won't make FO 3 s-ck? That's silly. Fo 3 will be whatever it will be.

These threats, implied intimidations, extortions, by alleged messengers of good behavior that's silly too.

When profiled and reviled as a stereo type, how else should I reply?
Why should I be a 'Better Person' than the profiler, the reviler?

Oh, there's a place in heaven for martyr's and a place in hell for FOOL's.
Reward's after death, after the personal apocalypse, that sounds real WIN -WIN for some one.

The stick is dirty on both ends.






4too
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Post by goatunit »

What the fuck is wrong with you? No, I don't sit around playing FP games. I can probably list every game I've played in the last five years:

Medieval Total War 1 and 2
Morrowind
Oblivion
Icewind Dale 2
Civilization IV
Tetris
and Blackjack on my cellphone.

Throw in a handful of SNES games and that's pretty much the full sum of my gaming life. I'm not one of these fucking swell guy-chan children who sits around lamenting the death of Tifa. I shovel asphalt for a living in Mississippi, so pardon me for enjoying long, immersive, escapist sources of entertainment.

I'll be the first to say that the video game is a valid medium of artistic expression, but fuck man. Read a book. Play a sport or something.

As far as the mass-production of art goes, it's funny you should mention Mao. Marx predicted that problem. He predicted Stephen King and Tony Scott and Thomas Kinkade.

Anyway, the absurdity of your argument is that you are bitching because some people like FP games and you like 3rd Person, presumably. Your argument boils down to, "Don't give them more of what they're familiar with. They're dumb. They need their eyes opened. They need new experiences. Give me more of what I'm familiar with!"

I'm not preaching for FP games. That's a retarded notion. I'm busy. I just thought a new fallout would be fun. I looked it up, and it's going to be FP. I thought that sounded neat. Dudes can play what they want to play. I don't give a shit. I just can't believe you clowns are acting like someone shit on the Mona Lisa.

Go back to playing through Fallout 2 for the hundredth time, you self-righteous, idiotic child. Or go on wasting time on these forums.

I'm going to remain excited about Fallout 3. And if it sucks, I'll get excited about something else. Somehow life goes on.
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Post by Matt_Helm »

What the fuck is wrong with you?
I'd say he was pretentious, very narrow minded, incapable of understanding that his opinions were not universal, and is probably about 14 years old (which makes arguing with him pointless). He is typical of the sort of poster you find in isolated, inbred forums for old games.

It is due to people like him that Fallout fans are called fanchimps out in the rest of the world, he is an little angry person who sits in the corner of his little cage and throws shit any anyone who wanders by who doesn't agree with him (a number that can roughly be estimated as being the rest of the world). He is utterly convinced of his infallibility and probably screams in frustration in the darkness of his little home because the rest of the world doesn't "get it".
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Post by Briosafreak »

Matt_Helm wrote:
What the fuck is wrong with you?
I'd say he was pretentious, very narrow minded, incapable of understanding that his opinions were not universal, and is probably about 14 years old (which makes arguing with him pointless). He is typical of the sort of poster you find in isolated, inbred forums for old games.
4Too is a brilliant thinker, with heterogeneous views in many issues, always ready for a good discussion with people that don't share his views and he's old enough to be your father, so matt that pretty much makes you a jackass and a moron.
It is due to people like him that Fallout fans are called fanchimps out in the rest of the world
well the world is divided on us, let's look at what the Lead designer of Fallout 3 says of us:
I'm Emil Pagliarulo, a designer on TES 4: Oblivion. I've been at Bethesda for a couple years now. Before that I was at Ion Storm Austin, and before that at Looking Glass Studios...working on the Thief series.

I thought Thief fans were the most passionate gamers on the planet...and then I met the Elder Scrolls fans. Then I thought THEY were the most passionate gamers on the player...until I met you guys and found out you had killed all the Elder Scrolls fans and fed them to the Deathclaws! Smile

Seriously, though, you guys are awesome. In the few months I've been visiting these forums I've seen more spirited, passionate, intelligent game design discussion than I have on a lot of other game forums in the past few years.
But yeah, there are fanchimps here and there, better that than being a jackass and a moron like you, Matty :wave:
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Post by Matt_Helm »

ROFL, yes, because you always get an honest publically stated opinion about a customer demographic from a software developer for a corporation that produces consumer products.

This is fun, tell me another story.

Oh, and if 4too is old enough to be my father, then he must be on life support and in a home for the aged who are waiting to die.

I can't say that I am surprised that 4too has little altar boys running around singing his praises.
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Post by atoga »

4too's post seems pretty low on fallout fanboy rhetoric to me. perhaps you should read it again?
suppose you're thinking about a plate of shrimp. suddenly somebody will say like 'plate' or 'shrimp' or 'plate of shrimp', out of the blue, no explanation.
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Post by MrSmileyFaceDude »

atoga wrote:4too's post seems pretty low on fallout fanboy rhetoric to me. perhaps you should read it again?
I was gonna say...
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Post by Brother None »

goatunit wrote:*snip*
People always get upset about 4too's posts when they don't understand them.

Grind on this one for a while; you are a hypocrite. Why? Because you accuse us of being narrowminded for not accepting the possibility of a fp-Fallout (which, by the way, is patently untrue), yet you are too narrowminded to see that first-person-view *is* the current "ad nauseum"-object dominating the current load of semi-cRPGs. If change is good, why are you so scared of Bethesda switching from first person view to isometric*?

As for the patently untrue bit, you do realise the biggest worriest concerning Bethesda are them getting either the setting or the roleplaying elements wrong? Considering that TES is a hack-and-slash-fantasy-adventure series, and Bethesda has no de facto experience with roleplaying games or post-apocalyptic settings, those worries are not invalid.

I won't adress the "you guys should be happy someone is making Fallout 3!"-bit, that's been done over and over again and nobody is falling for it anymore.

* also, please never say "isomorphic-view" again. That does not exist.
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Post by Subhuman »

Kharn wrote: If change is good, why are you so scared of Bethesda switching from first person view to isometric*?
Bethesda isn't switching from first-person, because the Fallout series has never utilized first-person. And goatunit said he isn't preaching for an FP fallout, thus he can't be "scared" FO3 might be isometric.

And if you think it's "patently untrue" that people here have balked at the idea of a first-person Fallout, you must not have been paying attention for the past four years.
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Post by St. Toxic »

So what if we did have claws instead of hands? Every piece of the organism counts; change is neither good nor bad, but if you're a milk sort of guy, you wouldn't want milk replaced with orange juice, especially with the slogan "It's still liquid". Just kill the cow and admit you did. We're not conservatives, pushing genres back to the dumb ages; we simply know what we like and can tell A from B, unlike some who suck cocks labeled as lollies. Input noted.
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[color=red]tool[/color] wrote:it sucks - I get excited about something else - life goes on
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Post by Kahgan »

Huzzah for St. Toxic! :drunk: :chew:
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Post by Blargh »

Succinctly shall I thank Matt for the absolute zenith of electric <deleted> gifts of '06. So selfless, so heart felt. I've not cackled thusly since . . . the last time.

Continue. :drunk:
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Post by PiP »

Matt_Helm wrote:about 14 years old (...) typical of (...) forums for old games.
:salute: :clap:
Matt_Helm wrote: he is an little angry person who sits in the corner of his little cage and throws shit any anyone who wanders by who doesn't agree with him (a number that can roughly be estimated as being the rest of the world). He is utterly convinced of his infallibility and probably screams in frustration in the darkness of his little home because the rest of the world doesn't "get it".
must've done a pretty in-depth study on 4too :salute:
Matt_Helm wrote:produces consumer products.
:salute: :clap:

Oh and I don't think Emil is naive enough to think he'd gain anything from us by such 'buttering up' - as you want to see it.

And if you're as old as you claim, you sure are dumb for your age.

All in all, you're a joke. Can't we get better jokes? :hahano:
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Post by goatunit »

Man, you guys take shit too seriously, and you're projecting it onto me. I do not take this shit seriously. I enjoy games, but they are not at all my life. I just don't see what the big deal is.

You guys talk about Oblivion like it was fucking Hexen or Eye of the Beholder. That's fine. It's really over-rated, but I still thought it was fun. Difference of opinion and all that. But you guys seem to have this fucked up opinion that by adding a first person view Fallout to the series, they are somehow subtracting an isomorphic view game. Or whatever other feature you're illogically hung-up on. It doesn't work like that.

I mean, look. I'm a socialist. I'll be the first to agree that these game companies are out to make a quick buck. What's fucked up is that you guys think Black Isle wasn't.

Furthermore, Fallout was brave and new. It practically started the isomorphic craze that Bioware and others cashed in on. Although, it could be argued that Black Isle were cashing in on Diablo's success. Ultimately, it doesn't matter because it ruled. It was a great game. And there are great games in every genre.

You guys remind me of the losers who quote Monty Python lines. The irony being that Python is important specifically because of the unpredictability. The sheer out-of-nowhere-ness of it. Quoting their jokes runs directly opposed to everything about them that is worth a damn.

Anyway, I'm going to go play peek-a-boo with my kid. It's first-person but still fun. You should really give it a shot.
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Post by atoga »

look, if you want to get all "i can list all the games i've played in the past five years" i would be naming fewer games than you would be, and that's probably also true for a lot of the members here? furthermore, you seem to be under the impression that most of us will be heartbroken if fallout 3 turns out shitty, or is seriously unfaithful to the previous 2 fallout crpgs. granted: fallout 1 is one of those few games which approach being art (not all of those games are necessarily crpgs, of course). it would certainly be swell if bethsoft followed up with a game rivalling fallout 1 in terms of non-cookie cutter story, dope '50s feeling, character development, non-linear aspect, etc., of course, but anyone who guarantees that's gonna happen is making a dubious claim.

on the other hand, if it ends up being as mundane as i'm guessing oblivion was, why would we bother with it? if one don't play a lot of games, why would you bother with the boring, overhyped ones? why should attaching the name 'fallout' to a game have us sold?
I mean, look. I'm a socialist. I'll be the first to agree that these game companies are out to make a quick buck. What's fucked up is that you guys think Black Isle wasn't.
of course true, though it's worth mentioning that fallout 1 (in addition to planescape: torment, which was also excellent) was pretty much a b-list game; very few of the setting/gameplay aspects were forced to conform to the expectations of marketers, investors, etc. so the developers were, pretty much, allowed to run free and introduce omg fresh new ideas. (at least relative to other BIS titles like baldur's gate ii or something).
You guys remind me of the losers who quote Monty Python lines. The irony being that Python is important specifically because of the unpredictability. The sheer out-of-nowhere-ness of it. Quoting their jokes runs directly opposed to everything about them that is worth a damn.
huh? well said, but how does this relate to the thread at hand at all?

christ, this forum is getting old hat. vague threads about how bethsoft is horrible, with equally vague threads arguing that things could be a lot worse. how enlightening. can we just delete the fallout 3 forum already?
suppose you're thinking about a plate of shrimp. suddenly somebody will say like 'plate' or 'shrimp' or 'plate of shrimp', out of the blue, no explanation.
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