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Poll :: your opinion on the COVER for Fallout d20

It's great!
5%
 5%  [ 3 ]
It's not bad.
3%
 3%  [ 2 ]
the general quality is Ok, but it's definitely not Fallout style
19%
 19%  [ 10 ]
overall it looks bad, but it has some nice Fallout style and feel.
5%
 5%  [ 3 ]
it looks like CRAP and it's totally NOT Fallout style!
65%
 65%  [ 34 ]
Total Votes : 52


Author Message
Rosh
Desert Strider
Desert Strider


Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 812

PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 4:33 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Tensen01 wrote:
I said I wouldn't post again, but I have to.

I thank you all(most of you) for being polite and constructive in your critisisms.


We were, initially, until you guys started blowing off the criticisms. Now including locking threads on your forums after making outright lies that contradict what you and another artist have said, by saying it IS 50's style. Pointing out where you're going wrong IS criticism, constructive too as we could just say "Blows!" and move on and leave you in binary internet dust. That we take the time and effort, instead of just ignoring you like the shitty Fallout Morrowind mods, should speak enough for hope that you guys CAN unplug your heads from your asses. If not, then we'll make it worth the time of ours you have fraudulently wasted previously.

You were given a forum on this site so the canon can be adhered to, and so you could easily see the feedback. Once people put that down, the threads are wiped with a shitty excuse, and then the first unacceptable piece of shit, the intro, is uneviled.

Again, for the benfit of the mentally challenged or purposefully slow - the artwork was merely the second unacceptable piece. To use the rules of baseball, you guys struck out. What the FUCK do you think was going to happen?

First, the intro was a complete piece of shit, not even acceptable by fan-fic forum standards.

Second, the artwork to be used as the cover piece was completely mis-styled, to the point of being laughably wrong. Mad Max was just one small fraction of the influences for Fallout, so to make a piece wholly in the style of a Mad Max poster and try to call it Fallout - stupid. Fallout has a collective art style that is not just Mad Max - in fact it has nothing to do with Mad Max except for the leather jacket art - WHICH THE FUCKTARD ARTIST FUCKED UP, TOO! CONGRATULATIONS AGAIN ON BEING FUCK-UPS! YOU COULDN'T EVEN PLACE THE MAD MAX REFRENCE RIGHT AS A WHOLE TEAM SUCKING EACH OTHER OFF!!

Does that even look close? No? Then why are you stupid enough to have to ask us about it? It should be obvious to so-called "artists", and yet you guys work as a team! That's...charming.

Third, the actual ruleset itself, was so laughably treated in the Traits, it's a wonder what else is similarly as fucked up. There were more unacceptable things in that sheet than un-fucked items.

So if you didn't give a fuck what was being released, we had to put a boot up your asses to say that we didn't fucking care to be lied to yet again. Sorry to make you piss yourselves, kiddies.

Quote:

And I will tell you, I have just seen the updated version of the cover(the above was a work in progress and in no way complete, and posting it was a mistake on Johns part, but what's done is done)


As was making the intro a laughable piece of crap also John's fault? How about the Traits that were fucked? And then on top of those, the artwork was supposedly good with everyone on the art team being happy with everyone else's work, yet each person who has yet spoken has been even more fucking clueless than the last.

Quote:

and the quality is much much better. I too, was very skeptical about the cover when I saw this version, but I can say now that I'm very happy with what David's done since.


Yeah, and supposedly you all were critiquing and seeing everyone's work and it fit, etc. etc. because you're allowed to Make Up Your Own Shit.

You were also very happy before. So what makes this a different "very happy" except the timing of the verbal blowjob?

Quote:

The artist has taken much of your advice and fixed the Power armor shoulders, as well as given the helmet better detailing, and made both the ghoul and the Super Mutant much more recognizable as such. Though I did give him a few pointers and some other stuff to maybe tinker with.


Wow, and supposedly this was done already, yet it becomes our fault for noticing it along with the craptacular intro, and the Traits, that makes it look like nobody there on the team has a clue no matter what you want to say.

Quote:

And as for the Logo, terrible, I agree, but John says it was a place holder)Another bad choice which I very much called him on in one of my e-mails as soon as I saw it) and the finished one will be much more to your liking, I assure you.


Then don't post it as a sample, and by no means use it as the indicative piece on your website, blatant typo and everything! It takes 10 minutes to fix and convert from PDF. WTF?

Really, this shit is quite unacceptable for even a fansite, and yet you're going to try and use it as an example to sell this to people?

Quote:

Now, I pose a question, a question that I would like serious, civil answers to.

START QUESTION

What would you like to see done in the picture. And I mean, having ONLY this picture to choose from, and seeing something you'ld like added or adjusted, what would it be?

I will be more than happy to pass any serious comments on to David. And I'm sure that he'll be more than happy to try them out, if time permits.

END QUESTION


I'm not getting paid to do his job. Now if he were an artist, he can read the critiques for himself and learn what was said about it. He doesn't need to be spoon-fed through a middle-man that would undoubtedly fuck things up even moreso than the average game of "Grapevine", judging from the *wonderful* amount of inter-artist communication that had previously occured.

He's also getting paid to do this, right? Then he can act like a professional, and do proper work on a commercial product if you guys expect us to BUY IT. Common sense.

Or is he even more thenthitive than you?

Quote:

I also, personally think that a Christmas release date is very optimistic, there's a lot to do with an RPG to make sure it's shelf-worthy, and Christmas seems like too soon to do that to me.


Given the quality and the "oh, shit rewrite" going on, plan on next summer.

Quote:

(Snip a whole load of life's story.)


Chuck's crew said that as well, and only GameBanshee was stupid enough to wait for the bitter shot with their mouths open. That includes the shithead who drew the version of Big Boy.

So I have to wonder about an artist who went so far to draw a pic after his Fallout GURPS character, a Mobster.

So, unless you prove that you've learned something in that time, I can safely say that what you've said previously is to be the truth, and this is the continuation of the poor spin started on the GC forums.
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Frater Perdurabo
Paragon
Paragon


Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 2427
Location: Vőro

PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:35 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Guys, I think that we all ought to cool off for a while now. The artwork was shit, and finally they admitted to it being so, however, Tensen01 said that they would get their shit together now, and who knows, maybe they'll even take some of the other contributions into consideration, which is a little difficult now, since they've been deleted, but I'm sure they're still up at NMA, aren't they? So how about we hold our horses until next round (optimistically hoping that there won't be a round 2).

Anyway, in response to Tensen's question. The problem was not that the poster lacked references, the problem was that it didn't look Fallouty. What is Fallouty? That's for you artist to figure out. By now, you ought to understand the stuff that you're dealing with now (and understanding what kind of shit does not go down well). I cannot tell you what to add into the picture, since I'm not artist, but I think that on behalf of the regular "fanboy" (as we seem to be called now), I'd be able to give a good answer on whether it sucks or not.
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Rosh
Desert Strider
Desert Strider


Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 812

PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:26 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Frater Perdurabo wrote:
Guys, I think that we all ought to cool off for a while now. The artwork was shit, and finally they admitted to it being so, however, Tensen01 said that they would get their shit together now


By just taking their word? So far we've had FOUR explanations, first the original three, and now Tensen's "it was unfinished" excuse when I thought all the artists were in a circle jerk about it. Plus the claims that it was Fallout previously.

Bullshit. It was hardly "unfinished" in many ways.

1. They were going to add in the one sleeve for the jacket later on, after the one wearing it was already comfortable with wearing the rest of the leather armor. Of course when everyone thinks Fallout, there's no sleeves on the leather armor like FOT. Did I say "armor"? I meant to say "jacket" like in Mad Max. Fallout's leather jackets are well-known in style, as a nod to some of the most popular post-apocalyptic movies. To miss that and Make Your Own Shit Up is not canon. Amusing it is excused as being Mad Max in style, when they don't even care to use the most superficial and obvious element from Mad Max Fallout was best known for - the leather jacket. Why the "artists" failed this...wow, it defies any explanation or excuse I have so far thought of to anticipate. This excuse so far defies logic in it could reason that anything, no matter how stupid, has the potential to become reality upon the most flimsiest of reasonings.
2. Of course the artillery and the turbine engine were just placeholders like the text, too. Honestly.
3. The burn victim with the chin piercings was going to be detailed as being a bit more than look like a zombie with a primitive fashion sense.
4. The *really* short orc is going to get platform shoes.
5. The Vault Dweller is going to remove the shoulder patches, elbow pads, and gloves as part of the strip poker minigame!
6. The Vault Dweller is going to holster one of those guns or only fire one at a time! Guns akimbo NOT in Fallout-style, but excused because it's "original" styling from movie poster art.
7. It was going to suddenly not be styled like an action movie poster. WTF? Nothing about this is about pulp styles or anything similar to Fallout's setting design. It's taking one reference out of context and then basing the WHOL MATERIAL upon a facet of that out of contextual reference.
8. Really, where is anything supportive of canon? When I say the pic is shit, IT IS TOTAL SHIT. NO ELEMENT BEFITS THE SUBJECT MATERIAL. There wasn't any proofing done beforehand except to be supportive of each other's feewings.

What part of an old FEMA-style warning video (which they would have seen from the Fo2 intro) makes people think it's like an action movie? How about the beginning of Fo1? And now, GC has "honored" Fallout with this unimaginative crap. I hope the next "version" is representative of a complete re-evaluation of GluttonCreeper's development. Otherwise, I can safely say that people are past fed up with the excuses and lies, even if they are with a bit of an admittance about what was done. The time to be forthright is not after the fact (and they still aren't), and until John starts to sound a little less retarded with lies only the target audience of Monkey Mountain could possibly believe, GC can go fuck themselves for all I care.

EDIT: Want a good example of cluelessness still going on?

Apparently, someone confused the level 12 perk Tag! with the concept of Tagged Skills.

Quote:

TAG!: Character get to pick 3 skill as class skill starting with 2 free ranks.
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PiP
Last, Best Hope of Humanity
Last, Best Hope of Humanity


Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 5025
Location: Brighton beach

PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:11 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I don't have the time right now to read ALL that Rosh posted, so I'll just anwer Tensen now:
Tensen01 wrote:
And I will tell you, I have just seen the updated version of the cover(the above was a work in progress and in no way complete, and posting it was a mistake on Johns part, but what's done is done) and the quality is much much better. I too, was very skeptical about the cover when I saw this version, but I can say now that I'm very happy with what David's done since.

The artist has taken much of your advice and fixed the Power armor shoulders, as well as given the helmet better detailing, and made both the ghoul and the Super Mutant much more recognizable as such. Though I did give him a few pointers and some other stuff to maybe tinker with.
Ok that sounds better, when will we see it?
Quote:
Now, I pose a question, a question that I would like serious, civil answers to.

START QUESTION

What would you like to see done in the picture. And I mean, having ONLY this picture to choose from, and seeing something you'ld like added or adjusted, what would it be?

I will be more than happy to pass any serious comments on to David. And I'm sure that he'll be more than happy to try them out, if time permits.

END QUESTION

- the ghoul
- the super mutant (skin, jaw, minigun should be attached under one of forearms)
- vault suit - STRIPE PATTERN, SHOULDER PADS, elbow pads, gloves
- helmet's sight aperture should have straight, not curving lines
- the overall fuzziness of the painting style - what is it, airbrush? spray?

Quote:
I'm sorry I lost my temper in previous posts and I'll be civil from now on.
no biggie for me.

Quote:
I'm a fan too, I've been playing the games since they were first released, I have the Vault Survival guide printed out and under my bed, (...)
it's good to know that.
Quote:
maybe I'll ask John if I can post a couple. I drew what I'd like to see in a Fallout book.
please do.

Thanks for 'constructive' posting on your part and stay in touch.
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Tensen01
Glutton Creeper artist


Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 34
Location: Pueblo, Co.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:43 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I screwed up, it was Sam who's doing the cover, not David, I'm mixing people up.

As for when, I don't know, not my descision. I'm not in charge, I'm just along for the ride now.
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Rosh
Desert Strider
Desert Strider


Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 812

PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:40 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Tensen01 wrote:
I screwed up, it was Sam who's doing the cover, not David, I'm mixing people up.


So much for the art team getting together for a happy circle jerk of approval if details like that prove to be confusing. Hell, you can't even remember the author, now what about something that might require a bit of thought, like art styles?

Quote:

As for when, I don't know, not my descision. I'm not in charge, I'm just along for the ride now.


Kind of like everyone working for John, apparently, since most of the "what do you want to see" threads got axed here a few days before GluttonCrapper decided to release and ignore almost all feedback about the intro that wasn't self-congratulatory, and has been ignoring just about everything else except to answer with blatant lies contradicted by simple observation and what others try to spin-doctor, and chickenshit refusal to actually read feedback when it's put too forcefully to ignore.

That means we've been getting pretty fucking annoyed with feedback being ignored since Sept 9th, for the benefit of the slow and recent to follow this "title", and the lies GC has shoveled out in response to the increased force of the feedback since it was previously ignored. John decides to make that excuse about the intro, knowing that people weren't pleased with how utterly craptacular it was, and any editor worth their job would have known that piece would have required a total rewrite instead of being posted as a sample of what to expect. Congratulations, at this point, we expected a load of baseless shit that would make Chuck Cuevas' team thoroughly disgusted. That estimation has only gone downhill with the later "samples".

The same lack of attention to setting details was again observed in the cover art, and John didn't seem to see any reason to address that, either as he continued with a wipe of his ass to the concept of Traits (and let's take a look at "Tag!" for instance of his utter cluelessness), instead leaving it for you to weakly make excuses for the art and other issues, because he can't ever bother to do his job.

Really, where is this attention to "feedback" we keep hearing about, but don't seem to be seeing worth a damn as obviously nobody on the development side paid attention to the increasing hostility until it was time to piss yourselves as you ran away in fear - we still haven't really seen anything remotely resembling feedback except for John's shitheaded lies and an offer to hold the artist's hand and do his job for him AFTER we've already noted at length the problems with the piece. So I then gave my feedback in the form of a verbal boot being placed up the apologist and the liar's asses both.

Fuck, man, it would be extremely hard to call this stuff first-draft work if it were a commercial publication. Since it's obviously not...
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PiP
Last, Best Hope of Humanity
Last, Best Hope of Humanity


Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 5025
Location: Brighton beach

PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:20 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Rosh wrote:
The same lack of attention to setting details was again observed in the cover art, and John didn't seem to see any reason to address that, either as he continued with a wipe of his ass to the concept of Traits (and let's take a look at "Tag!" for instance of his utter cluelessness), instead leaving it for you to weakly make excuses for the art and other issues, because he can't ever bother to do his job.
thanks for posting this link Rosh, it shoulda been in this thread from the start since it shows the initial reaction to the cover. It was for a mix of time shortage and laziness that I didn't do it rolleyes
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johnnygothisgun
Hero of the Desert
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Joined: 30 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:51 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I find your stance on this issue admirable, Tensen. salute It is appreciated muchly in the community that you are taking and actually acting on criticisms, even if some people will not make it seem that way. I'm sure that after this I don't even have to remind you that when fans are given an inch they will take a mile.
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Rosh
Desert Strider
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Joined: 18 Apr 2002
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:20 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

johnnygothisgun wrote:
I find your stance on this issue admirable, Tensen.


I've heard better from better and it still turned out to be a lie. With what was given as "samples", ignored, etc. until we had to be gruff, it will take concrete proof otherwise to reverse the damage that has already been done. GluttonCreeper could decide to do this, but according to John the Retard, the artwork already "superb and are done in a 50's style".

As much as one sobbing artist (maybe two) might mean in terms of apologizing for the incompetence of everyone, it doesn't remove the problems with other "samples" or even invalidate the problems with the artists doing their job (collectively incompetent, as we're led to believe, as they all check over each other's work!) Nor does having the offer to hold the cover artist's hand, even after we gave samples of what would fit, more than a detailed list that neatly debunks every lie so far put out about the cover art and other "sample" material.

So until I get paid to do part of their job for them, the effort and subject material part, they can take the criticisms and do their fucking job. Also, notice that now that GluttonCreeper has their own forum, more of the team decided to show up. I find it funny that the artist in question only decides to pay attention to feedback only after GC has pulled a Chuck Cuevas, including lying and locking threads to prevent people from debunking the lies directly in the thread, and after the artist has someone make excuses for him. Well, I've been waiting on hearing the excuses and lies, since I know I'm not going to get an explanation, about why nobody was really looking at the feedback or suggestions in the first place. Including a real explanation for why the forum was wiped, instead of John's idiotic excuse.

So what was preventing him or the rest of the team in using this forum for freeback and such for the length of time it has been here? That rather infers that it was only here as free publicity. Well, there's no such thing as free publicity if you're not going to pay attention to your audience or subject material, so now you have "worthless material" because nobody seems to be interested anymore in something that looks like it only has as much connection to Fallout as a fucked Intro, mis-styled cover art based upon and yet also ignoring one single setting element at the same time while pissing all over the rest of canon, and a set of Traits each more fucked than the last. Compared to this, Chuck Cuevas had more of a clue, even if he was similarly so deep in denial.

Great "feedback" and attention to this forum. Congratulations on using your "experience", GluttonCreeper.

Quote:

It is appreciated muchly in the community that you are taking and actually acting on criticisms, even if some people will not make it seem that way.


Sorry, it takes some actual proof to prove this action, not a fourth version of lies and excuses after breaking down like a little sobbing bitch. Remember the purpose of this forum? To make sure GluttonCreeper and crew didn't have their heads up their asses?

Then why do they seem to have failed on all counts and just now only Tensen and the other artist seem to be "working" on doing anything to redeem this title? By "finishing" the "unfinished" piece.

Oops.

There's no such thing as free publicity, which is all John ever wanted here. Judging from the lack of response to feedback, it looked like that was all the others on the team ever cared to use this forum for, given their .sigs.

Quote:
I'm sure that after this I don't even have to remind you that when fans are given an inch they will take a mile.


I'm sure that after this I don't even have to remind you that when Fallout fans are given shit, they will not hesitate to shovel it back and then proceed to beat you over the head with the shovel. Fact is, GC and crew decided to ignore this forum and posted feedback until it couldn't be ignored. Fine. I don't want to hear any more excuses, whining stories, or a FIFTH background version of contradictory lies around the cover art. I want to see some actual work with a real clue put behind it.*

And the art is perhaps the most superficial of it all in terms of actual P&P gameplay, but helps to set the feeling and setting. Care to explain why GluttonCreeper is ignorant of common Fallout ruleset concepts, mixing up a 12th level Perk with the concept of Tagged Skills?

* - Actually, guys, don't bother now, it's a bit too late. It makes it all the easier for those who *are* treating the material with respect to sink you without effort.
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St. Toxic
Haha you're still not there yet
Haha you're still not there yet


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:29 am Reply with quoteBack to top

aiee aiee aiee aiee aiee aiee aiee aiee aiee aiee aiee



EDIT: Here's betting they don't even have the brains to steal quality.


Last edited by St. Toxic on Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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atoga
Mamma's Gang member
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:31 am Reply with quoteBack to top

muy bueno st. toxic! icon_joy

~megatron icon_joy
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Jesus Christ
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:23 am Reply with quoteBack to top

atoga wrote:
muy bueno st. toxic! icon_joy
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Frater Perdurabo
Paragon
Paragon


Joined: 05 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:45 am Reply with quoteBack to top

vx trauma for president!
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johnnygothisgun
Hero of the Desert
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:58 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Bravo!
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vx trauma
250 Posts til Somewhere
250 Posts til Somewhere


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:58 pm Reply with quoteBack to top



sehr uber exzellent werk Toxic! JA!

salute

they should have hired you when they still had their pants on.
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jetbaby
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:12 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I don't have time to read this whole thing but I need to respond to this:

Quote:
The original Fallout art team didn't always adhere to a strict 50's sci-fi influence either. For example: Art from Fallout. I love this pic but, let's be honest, their Vault Suits look like superhero costumes and nothing like what people would have worn in a 50's sci-fi movie, like this from Forbidden Planet.*


Okay. Was Fallout a 50's sci-fi movie or was it a computer game called Fallout?

Last I recall it was a game. Called Fallout.

And in this game, which was CLEARLY not a movie made in or styled after the 1950's, I seem to recall people wearing exactly what was drawn in the first image. Superhero-like or not, that is the vault suit as shown in not only Fallout, but Fallout 2 as well. Perhaps your character wasn't ripped all to hell with muscles oozing out of every corner as shown in the illistration, but that's artistic freedom. THAT was an artist putting his ideas into a picture. Changing the vault suit is not putting your ideas into the work. It's saying "Yes, I know what it supposed to be like but I don't really like it that way so I'm going to do it completely different so that it's how I want it and now how it was before."


Makes sense to me lolz.
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Ausir
The Vault Overseer
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:13 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

St. Toxic wrote:
aiee aiee aiee aiee aiee aiee aiee aiee aiee aiee aiee



EDIT: Here's betting they don't even have the brains to steal quality.


May we use it for the Fallout PnP Wiki when we open it? Remove the "d20" part, though smile.
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Jesus Christ
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:44 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Ausir wrote:
May we use it for the Fallout PnP Wiki when we open it? Remove the "d20" part, though smile.


icon_clap icon_dance icon_joy
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St. Toxic
Haha you're still not there yet
Haha you're still not there yet


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:33 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Ausir wrote:
May we use it for the Fallout PnP Wiki when we open it? Remove the "d20" part, though smile.


Naturally. Be my guest.
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King of Creation
Righteous Subjugator
Righteous Subjugator


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:41 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

St. Toxic is a better artist than anyone at GCG. Eegads, gluttoncreeper, you are a poor businessman.
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