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Since Bethesda decided to make Fallout 3, we figured we might as well have a forum about it.
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Mismatch
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Post by Mismatch »

It'd be nice to have some generic NPC's that you can hire that the game gives one of five random personalities. That would be fun. Plus if they die then you could easily replace them. Though their experience would be wasted.
stop spewing chit you fuckface.
Generic is (part of) what made morrowind a steaming pile of shit.
The NPC's need well thought through UNIQUE personalities with a massive backgroud story. Who cares if you run out of them. In FO2 I usually worked my way through them NPC's as if they were 12year old girls on summer camp.
And I bloody enjoyed it.

And, about the whole "I need to control my NPC's" thingy: Youre wrong here too.
Not controlling the NPCs is a bloody blast. Watching with joy filled awe as marcus plows through your body with a bozar is helluva way to spend an evening.
This made it rather important to think through what orders you gave your party and carefully taking their weapon into consideration.
On top of that, I liked the fact that the NPC's levelled up on their own in FO1&&2.

If you had ruled nazi germany, ww2 woudnt have taken place, since you would have fucked the whole of germany up from within.
So, get into politics and save some lives.
Last edited by Mismatch on Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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VasikkA
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Re: Why the player should have control of party members

Post by VasikkA »

PaladinHeart wrote:Let's take a situation.
Not again!
Here's where the problems start. You're in the doorway so naturally your idiot party members just stand around and don't do a thing.
Yeah, that's usually what happens when you open a door.
It's your turn again now if you have decent perception. Otherwise the enemies all get a free turn.

Sequence, you mean? Oh well it was based on perception, although you could increase it with perks.
Better party control would have solved this problem.
What you're describing are AI issues, not a party control problem. This could be solved by making a smarter AI and/or the possibility to give instructions to your NPCs(range, weapon of choice, target of choice etc). Fuck, it worked decently in Ultima 7 and in Fallout 2 and it certainly can be improved.
Of course I'm hoping that if we don't have control of NPC party members in FO3 that they are at least smarter than those in FO1 and 2.
The topic title indicated you had come up with a master plan as to why change the perspective in Fallout from individual-based to party-based. Frankly, I was disappointed. I hoped you could give us valid reasons as to why Fallout 3 should be party-based instead of describing some images you jerked off to last night.

The story in Fallouts have always revolved around one character. Even one of the original designers(I don't remember which one) has said that was the reason they didn't allow you to control multiple characters.

The Vault Dweller, The Chosen One... The focus has always been on the player character(YOU, in other words, and YOUR actions). NPCs were there to aid you if necessary, but ultimately it was you who ran the show and carried the responsibility. Consider the NPCs more like associates or companions. I believe the fact that you couldn't control them made you genuinely care for your NPCs. They were individuals, not 'team members', even if they sometimes shot you in the back.

As for NPC personalities, it was one of the few things Baldur's Gate did well. There's your role model.
A toga wrote:Y'know, PaladinHeart is sorta right. Sorta. Full-on control is stoopid though. Perhaps the player should be allowed to control their party members in some situations (possibly through use of a skill or a perk requiring some investment on the player's part).
You could utilize your NPCs 'special skills' in Fallout, except that you hardly ever needed to do that. Partial or temporal control(i.e. jumping between characters) would kind of pull you away from the PCs character, making the game feel scripted and fake.
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Post by requiem_for_a_starfury »

Generic NPCs would be as bad as NPC pack mules, why would you care about these characters without character? It would just be something the powergamer would exploit.

Better to have a few NPCs each with their own backstory and distinct character.
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Post by VasikkA »

Mismatch wrote:If you had ruled nazi germany, ww2 woudnt have taken place, since you would have fucked the whole of germany up from within.
So, get into politics and save some lives.
Classic. :clap:
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Post by PaladinHeart »

Mismatch wrote:
It'd be nice to have some generic NPC's that you can hire that the game gives one of five random personalities. That would be fun. Plus if they die then you could easily replace them. Though their experience would be wasted.
stop spewing chit you fuckface.
Generic is (part of) what made morrowind a steaming pile of shit.
The NPC's need well thought through UNIQUE personalities with a massive backgroud story. Who cares if you run out of them. In FO2 I usually worked my way through them NPC's as if they were 12year old girls on summer camp. And I bloody enjoyed it.
You just wasted a lot of time writing that. I said SOME. Not all.

Concerning the rest of what has been said, by Mismatch and others, I posted various ideas and thoughts for discussion. I often change my mind on what might work best.
Mismatch wrote:If you had ruled nazi germany, ww2 woudnt have taken place, since you would have fucked the whole of germany up from within. So, get into politics and save some lives.
I'm flattered you'd think I could get into politics but I'm not as charasmatic as some of you guys are. :eyebrow:

Gotta go now. I'll be back later. I might even respond to some of the other taunts. :bored: Or not. As whimsy takes me.
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Post by S4ur0n27 »

I'm really really really glad you're not on the FO3 dev team, Paladin.

Nearly all of your ideas sucks the shit.

How many NPCs would you like to have 5? This isn't Fallout Tactics, it's fucking Fallout.
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Post by VasikkA »

PaladinHeart wrote:I said SOME. Not all.
How about NONE? Fallout Tactics had generic characters and I don't remember any of them. And you could even control them OMG!!
Concerning the rest of what has been said, by Mismatch and others, I posted various ideas and thoughts for discussion. I often change my mind on what might work best.
Maybe you should think them through, like what consequences they'd have or if the old system even needs to be replaced. Instead, you answer the criticism by spewing out new crappy ideas and scenarios.
I might even respond to some of the other taunts.
Please do, I'm having a blast. :joy:
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Post by vx trauma »

S4ur0n27 wrote: This isn't Fallout Tactics, it's fucking Fallout.
Jolly good, Susan.

OTwomit: RENAME F3 to Fucking Fallout 3.

-ENDE
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Post by PaladinHeart »

Actually I remember some of the party members from Fallout Tactics more than I remember my PC from the Fallout games. Even moreso than some poorly developed NPC's such as Vic and.. Lenny? Was that the ghoul's name?

I remember Stumpy and Sturm (I think that was their names) as being clearly useful although expendable characters in the early game. The only thing that made you care more about Ian and Dogmeat was the fact that there were no other joinable NPC's in the game. No other useful ones at least. I don't even remember that girl's name that had the green hair. Who would though? She had bad stats and was available in the later, more hostile, areas of the game.

Then again I remember most of the joinable NPC's from Fallout 2 as NPC's. Not companion NPC's. I remember Dogmeat and Ian as good companion NPC's but when I remember those in Fallout 2 I often remember Harold and Lynette and others just as much as Marcus. To me he was a story driven NPC. That he could join your party was awkward and clunky.

Oh. Someone mentioned that they could level up on their own in Fallout 1 and 2. They didn't level up at all in Fallout 1 and in Fallout 2 they only leveled up at random when YOU level up. That made it a pretty useless feature.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. " -John 3:16

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Post by Mismatch »

Even moreso than some poorly developed NPC's such as Vic and.
Vic had a daughter. Remember?
This led to a looong conversation in VC about her mother and chit.
Marcus. To me he was a story driven NPC. That he could join your party was awkward and clunky.
hay fucker, marcus was great.
Not only he had quite the story, but also he had penis envy.
flares to the groin.
And what was rilly great was that having a ghoul or mutant in yer party had cosequences in VC.
Added a dimension in my opinion.
Oh. Someone mentioned that they could level up on their own in Fallout 1 and 2... glahglah
you missed my point with a horses ass.
The point was that WHEN they leveled up, you had no control over what to improve.
And that was good.
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Post by requiem_for_a_starfury »

Who cares what Katja's stats were, in fact I've never even looked at her or any of the other NPC's stats in either Fallout or Fallout2. Partially since there's so few to find anyway but mainly what their stats are like shouldn't matter in a RPG. In a tactical combat game, yes their stats are important but not in a RPG because combat isn't the be all and end all of RPGs and not every NPC needs to be an expert. Besides she's only found late in the game if you do the game in a particular order.

Vic is almost the perfect example of how an NPC should be. Not only does he have a good interaction with the player and provides a service that the player's character might not have chosen but his quest advances the plot of the game. The only thing that could of improved him is when he's reunited with his daughter, he decides to leave you and settle down in Vault City. Not that the NPC's quest needs to advance the plot especially in a game with Fallout's freedom.
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Post by Kashluk »

I'm so totally agreeing with Mismatch.
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Post by Nicolai »

Yeah, I'd rather not have control of my NPCs. TB combat can be rather tedious when you have to control your whole party, and you don't get any of those wacky situations either.
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Post by PaladinHeart »

Since someone resorted to name calling, yet again (surprise surprise), then I'm going to just ignore their posts until they grow up.
requiem_for_a_starfury wrote:Who cares what Katja's stats were, in fact I've never even looked at her or any of the other NPC's stats in either Fallout or Fallout2. Partially since there's so few to find anyway but mainly what their stats are like shouldn't matter in a RPG. In a tactical combat game, yes their stats are important but not in a RPG because combat isn't the be all and end all of RPGs and not every NPC needs to be an expert. Besides she's only found late in the game if you do the game in a particular order.
I didn't know what her stats were either. It was just pretty obvious due to the fact she couldn't hit the broad side of a barn... Maybe she could have hit rats? She sure couldn't hit raiders or any other sort of human/oid for that matter.

I would have appreciated her more if she had some sort of story or quest involving her or even some character. She just seemed so generic to the point of saying something along the lines of, "Hey I'm bored here can I come with you?".

I actually would rather get NPC's in my part that have little to no skills and then help them level up (without them having to go by your levels to level up) as this would be more realistic. A super mutant sheriff probably isn't going to join your party. Even if they do kick butt. I just didn't find it realistic. He belongs in his town. Not out in the wasteland getting killed for some nutcase that claims they're the "chosen one".
requiem_for_a_starfury wrote:Vic is almost the perfect example of how an NPC should be. Not only does he have a good interaction with the player and provides a service that the player's character might not have chosen but his quest advances the plot of the game. The only thing that could of improved him is when he's reunited with his daughter, he decides to leave you and settle down in Vault City. Not that the NPC's quest needs to advance the plot especially in a game with Fallout's freedom.
I guess I was a little unfair with Vic. I agree. He should have stayed in Vault City with his daughter once he's fulfilled his quest requirement of helping you find the water flask trader. I just felt like he was more of a quest driven NPC than someone who'd go out in the wastes with you beyond fulfilling his quest requirements. It would have been nice if given the option to "let an NPC go" that feels as if they owe you something.
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Post by requiem_for_a_starfury »

PaladinHeart wrote:I didn't know what her stats were either. It was just pretty obvious due to the fact she couldn't hit the broad side of a barn... Maybe she could have hit rats? She sure couldn't hit raiders or any other sort of human/oid for that matter.
So what does that matter, She seemed quite effective with the 14mm pistol, but even if she's lousy at combat who cares. It's not about how good they are, nor should it ever be. Otherwise you lose the character part and return to the packmule/cannon fodder.
PaladinHeart wrote:I would have appreciated her more if she had some sort of story or quest involving her or even some character. She just seemed so generic to the point of saying something along the lines of, "Hey I'm bored here can I come with you?".
And I thought you wanted generic NPCs.
PaladinHeart wrote:I actually would rather get NPC's in my part that have little to no skills and then help them level up (without them having to go by your levels to level up) as this would be more realistic. A super mutant sheriff probably isn't going to join your party. Even if they do kick butt. I just didn't find it realistic. He belongs in his town. Not out in the wasteland getting killed for some nutcase that claims they're the "chosen one".
It would be interesting to be able to train each other like in PST, 'hey you don't hold your pistol like that, but like this'. Though again you lose the non playable character part if you can control their skills and dictate how they level up where's your realism there? As for realism, super mutant sheriff and realistic in the same line, :lol: .
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Post by PaladinHeart »

It depends on how much realism you want over how much "I don't want to control any other character in any way" you want.

If say in Fallout 1 you had gotten an ally from your own vault then of course you'd trust them and feel like you should teach them better how to fight and stuff and they could also teach you how to do certain things. This also adds more depth to a generous character that wants to work as a team whereas a loner or someone just using the character as cannon fodder should have the option to do what they like with the character as well, even selling them to slavers if they wish.

The options should be there. It's just as realistic to play one loner as it is to play a character with a group of like-minded friends. It would be difficult and unrealistic to readily find said friends though in a hostile wasteland.
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