Nevermind

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Well if you have to have party members they should at least be useful. Those in the Fallout 1 and 2 games were useless beyond the early game. Later in the game they become more of a problem because they step on traps and you have to tell them to stay behind in certain places and you have to reload when they suddenly die in a random encounter etc.. etc..

I think there should be a mixture of helpful npcs and total klutzs it gives the game depth, but I'd like to see npcs who'll have their own lives and not stick with you forever.

[PaladinHeart]

Yes I agree there should be some NPC's that are kinda poor but they should all be able to level up and eventually get better. Maybe your characer could even take the time to occasionally train them to properly use a gun or other weapon? This would add some nice depth to the game and the NPC could even like the PC more for teaching them how to survive better.

... or perhaps they catch you in a bad situation and attack you, using what they've learned from you because they want all the loot.

It would be cool if the NPC's could have random personalities where they may or may not betray you. It would certainly add a lot of replay value and you'd never know who you could trust each time you replayed the game. :-D

[VasikkA]

I only bothered commenting the first post, for now.

I've been noticing everyone seems to want an isometric game. What's the last decent isometric RPG game you've played? The 3D ones usually aren't that great but maybe Bethesda could get it right.

All decent RPG's I can think of happen to be isometric/topdown. Can you name a decent first person RPG?

Just to clarify, I meant an RPG, not a FPS with RPG elements(which, in gaming terms, for some reason means character development). Deus Ex isn't an RPG.

Or they might just go with making it first person. The main problem I see with that is it might make it feel more like a FPS than an RPG. I can imagine a fun game though in a first person RPG if they do it right.

"If they do it right" is a bit vague, don't you think? You must have no clue how a change of view would affect gameplay.

The combat in Fallout is perhaps what struck me the most; the tactical depth, SPECIAL and thinking of how to spend those action points. I didn't get bored of combat at any time. How would you implement turn-based combat in a first-person game? That's right, you can't. Replacing this aspect of the Fallout games with standard FPS combat seems like a dumb thing to do, at least for me.

Imagine you're in a facility sneaking around avoiding the super mutants. There's a super mutant up the stairs on a ledge and you're hiding in the shadows and have clear view of his patrol path. Occasionally he might go grab a bite to eat (using Bethesda's new AI thingy they made up). Okay you can possibly sneak up there and lay a trap for him (using your traps skill) but he might notice it if your traps skill is too low and if he has good perception. You could possibly sneak up behind him and kill him with a silent melee blow (if you have the silent death perk by now). Maybe you could even sneak around and see where he eats at and poison their food.

Do you want me to imagine this in first person or in isometric view? I can do both.

I don't think first person would be so bad if they do it right.

"Not bad" isn't enough. Ask Herve.

I have to wonder if a lot of the people who want it isometric just haven't upgraded their computers in a while?... Just a though. xD

This has to be the worst argument ever. If I'd be afraid of the technical limitations, I'd stick to Pong or Tetris. Or buy a console.

I'm really hoping Oblivion is as interactive as I am hoping it will be. If not then hopefully they will do something different than first person with Fallout 3.

Losing confidence in Bethsoft, are we? Good. Next step is denial.

I've been thinking about the first person bit and guns and accuracy and how it could go over. You know how badly your accuracy is in Half Life: Counterstrike when you use burst fire? Well the less skill you have with the weapon in Fallout 3 the bigger that round aiming circle is (and thus the wider range your bullet has of possibly going). A percentage chance of hitting could even show up in the circle.

So you're thinking of a combat system similar to Vampire: Masquerade. It was a truly extraordinary combat system as it managed to combine and fuck up the combat of both RPG's and FPS's. Didn't you just love it when you missed a huge fucking gargoyle from 5 metres distance or when it was impossible to hit anything while moving? What's the point of aiming if in the end the outcome is determined by a dice?

In defense, I have to say that melee combat was mediocre.

Ah. Here's another scenario: You're wondering through the wastes looking for junk or anything that might be useful to yourself or to sell. You come up on an old building. Oddly enough it's locked. You can either pick the lock, knock the door down (if you're tough enough), or maybe there's a open window you can toss a rope up to and get in that way? Yes I would like to see a grappling hook & rope option added for Fallout 3 which would be a great way to get to high places that you couldn't get to otherwise and also a good way to get around without having to go by certain places.

Yeah, it's really comical to watch a guy in power armor pull himself up a rope. Maybe as a quest item(use rope on elevator shaft OMG), or make it a pulley and a rubber chicken.

Oh yeah. Once you're inside the building a number of things could happen. Let's say the floor upstairs is unstable and people with a low luck score have a higher chance of falling through than someone with a higher luck score. Character weight could also play a part. Falling would do damage of course based on your endurance and if your agility is high enough you might even land on your feet and take no damage, or maybe even catch hold and pull yourself back up.

*nods*

*yawns*

That's just basic gameplay mechanic that I think should be in the next generation Fallout. I would also like to see a good story and good NPC interaction just like anyone else.

Ah, good. At least you mentioned the story.

Oh! But with Beth's new AI system the following would most likely be possible.

Hold your horses, fanboy! You have no idea how Beth's new AI system works in practice. Last time I checked, Bethsoft said their newest piece of shit of an RPG was not in condition of being published. They might have to ditch that fancy AI.

You overhear a woman crying (due to your high perception ability) to her husband in a nearby shack while you're in town selling off your junk and you decide to investigate. You overhear her saying something about their missing son as you get closer and if you make a noise they clam up about it. But you've learned a key piece of information so you get to ask her about her son. She's reluctant to tell you at first if your charisma is low but if you have a high speech you can get the information out of her.

What the fuck does this have to do with anything?

Okay she tells you that her son told her he always played at a cave and he would tell her stories about a deathclaw that lived in the cave that he liked to watch and she's afraid the deathclaw might have eaten him or something. She wanted to keep this hush because nobody believes in deathclaws and would just think it's stupid. Let's just say her husband is crippled or a coward or something. For simplicity's sake.. or maybe it was her friend she was talking to. Doesn't matter.

Oh, there's even more. blah.

...

I'm sorry, I didn't feel like reading BULLSHIT.

Probably a waste of time but I just wanted to let everyone see how this could be a good and decent first person RPG.

?

??

????

Excuse my ignorance, but I didn't find a single good argument on how first person view would benefit Fallout. The nice little story you wrote can also be done in isometric view, not that it would be worthwhile though.

Let me tell you, immersion has nothing to do with the camera view. An immersive game is like reading a good book, or playing a good roguelike. You don't need first person view, realistic face impressions, lightning effects or lens flare. All you need is a believable gameworld. Using realism as an argument for first person view is retarded.

Oh by the way if you followed the boy's tracks then you find the SAFE way into the cave. Otherwise you don't know which way is safe and you might get ambushed by the sneaky deathclaw.

Deathclaws died in Fallout 2, remember? Let's stick with that, OK?

[PaladinHeart]

All the "smart" deathclaws died in Fallout 2. The experiments. Plus I actually doubt all of those being killed off. It is very possible that some of them could have been out gathering food etc.. And what about Goris? If you had him in your party then he lived as well. But FO3 deathclaws don't need to be smart and I did not imply that the one from the cave was one. Your comment is as overzealous as one would be to say all the super mutants died in Fallout 1.

As for good first person RPG's. Haven't you at least played Ultima Underworld? It's the best first person RPG ever. All about survival in an underground world. There's also Betrayal at Krondor of course.

Anyway like I later said in this thread the best way would be exploration via first person and then switch to third person isometric turn based for combat. This was how Betrayal at Krondor played and it was a great game. Though I would hope Fallout 3 would look better and be much more interactive since Betrayal at Krondor is umm.. at least 10 years old now. Likely 13 or so. I don't know and I'm too lazy to look it up.

[VasikkA]

All the "smart" deathclaws died in Fallout 2. The experiments. Plus I actually doubt all of those being killed off. It is very possible that some of them could have been out gathering food etc.. And what about Goris? If you had him in your party then he lived as well. But FO3 deathclaws don't need to be smart and I did not imply that the one from the cave was one. Your comment is as overzealous as one would be to say all the super mutants died in Fallout 1.

You're right. I just don't want deathclaws to be as common foes as they were in Tactics, especially if they can talk.

As for good first person RPG's. Haven't you at least played Ultima Underworld? It's the best first person RPG ever. All about survival in an underground world. There's also Betrayal at Krondor of course.

First person games today are very different from first person games 15 years ago(free look, mouse support). They're not really comparable. It's like comparing the view in Doom with Doom 3. I wouldn't even compare dungeon crawlers with modern RPGs. The combat in Underworld was realtime and melee oriented. Excellent games though.

[PaladinHeart]

I know it would be wildly different but I believe a Fallout 3 in the basic style of Betrayal at Krondor (first person exploration and interactivity with third person turn based combat) would make everyone really happy.

I want first person for exploration because you can really get more immersed in the game in that way. When it's in third person you can't really see that well what's in front of you or examine the small details. If you have a zoom option it doesn't usually work that well and tends to get clunky. In first person you can actually look up and see the ceilings and stuff like that. Imagine being able to look up an elevator shaft while you ascend the acess ladder to the next floor rather than dully telling your character to climb it and the screen darken for a moment while the next area loads.

Plus instead of having to click on bodies and having to watch your PC move to them and search them you just move over there and loot it yourself. I think first person offers a lot of interactivity and precision that you don't get from third person.

Switching to third person turn based for combat would then provide the most interactivity for combat. Thus you'd get the best of both worlds.

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I don't need to see up an elevator shaft to be immersed in a game, actually in the traditional view you can see down which is just as good. And the thing I have against the first person view in an RPG is I like to see my character. The characters in isometric view remind me of PnPing with minatures.

Switching views for combat just adds another clunky layer to the game design. There's no such thing as the best of both worlds in computer gaming, you just end up with mediocre games.

[Aonaran]

Bethesda already offers the ability to switch between 1st and 3rd person perspectives freely in their RPGs. Personally I kinda like the idea of first person for the combat, the whole skill/attribute based shot pattern idea works so much more interestingly that way. Still, Should they go with turn based combat I think I have an idea for how they could implement 3rd person without compromising free floating camera controls.

Simply click your weapon in the HUD and then the enemy for a basic attack, or, when you select a targeted attack have the central axis of the camera switch from you to the target (as opposed to a screen popping up asking you to choose between head, torso, eyes, left leg etc.) allowing you to move the camera around them and designate a much more specific point of fire. With this freedom you could instead of targeting the "eyes" hit a specific eye (would be especially good for sniper characters) and because of the vantage point actually watch the bullets (or other projectiles) make contact. After the attack is completed the camera's axis would once more switch back to the PC for the next action, thus averting any unwanted shift from 3rd to 1st person.

Shit, or if you are in third person to begin with when you select "targeted" it could shift the camera to an over the shoulder view. Either way it is more interesting than a pop up menu and you wouldn't have to lose sight of your character (if this is in fact important to you). Of course this is all assuming that they don't go for real time.

[Burnov]

You used Counterstrike in an analogy to fallout 3 gameplay.

Fail.

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I wasn't talking about just switching camera views, switching between first and third person in a shooter is one thing because it uses the same calculations for movement etc though aiming in third person view in a FPS never seems as smooth as in a game that was designed for third person combat from the start.

What I'm talking about is the heart of SPECIAL and TB combat or movement in general in Fallout is based on hexes. But if you wanted to have first person then switching to third person for combat, either you'd have two seperate sets of movement calculations which would add a clunky layer to the design or you have both views using the same calculations. Which would mean either first person movement based on hexes (somehow that sounds odd to me) or more likely the gutting and radical change to combat. Again which would mean radically changing SPECIAL a corner stone of the Fallout experience.

[PaladinHeart]

I don't need to see up an elevator shaft to be immersed in a game, actually in the traditional view you can see down which is just as good. And the thing I have against the first person view in an RPG is I like to see my character. The characters in isometric view remind me of PnPing with minatures.

Switching views for combat just adds another clunky layer to the game design. There's no such thing as the best of both worlds in computer gaming, you just end up with mediocre games.

I just don't like how third person works with 3D. The view in games like Neverwinter Nights and Dungeon Siege makes me want to barf. Various objects constantly impair your vision and you're constantly moving the camera around for a better view. It's all very clunky. Even in third person games that I have liked that use that view tend to seem "sub par". The only thing that will work for 3rd person for me is a fixed view. A view that will most likely obstruct you from seeing certain things that your character could obviously otherwise see.

Mediocre games? I'd hardly call Betrayal at Krondor a mediocre game. I'm sure many will claim to this day it is the best RPG they've ever played. I'd even go so far as to say I enjoyed it more than the Fallout games, which are short in comparison though they do offer more freedom in terms of character development (sorta).

Hex movement is an integral part of Fallout? I thought it was just a clunky game limitation that makes you look funny when you want to go up or down. xD

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

A fixed perspective should be a must, though if you have to an ability to temporarily zoom and swivel but I hate rotating cameras. Dungeonsiege always seemed to go screwy when my character was in a doorway and I seem to spend more time in Silent Storm adjusting the camera to see the enemy etc than I do actually playing the game.

I've not played Betrayal at Krondor (I've only read the books) but from the screens I've seen I can bet the first person view worked nothing like today's do and so shouldn't be used as a comparison.

And yes the hexes were an integeral, since the formulas and calculations were based on them.

[PaladinHeart]

The first person mode in Betrayal at Krondor was only used to move around and interact with various objects. I know it wasn't anything fancy and doesn't work like today's first person views would work but it's the basic principal. I'm using it as an example the same way you'd take the original Doom and use it as an example to describe how you'd want guns and a first person view for Doom 3.

It's just the general idea. I can imagine Fallout 3 taking place in first person and seamlessly panning out into isometric turn based 3rd person once combat starts just as easily as you can press your tab key in Morrowind to see your character from 3rd person.

[Wolfman Walt]

And I can imagine a day when stupid people stop posting their stupid ideas and start realizing that said ideas are not the coolest things known to mankind, unfortunetly, that has not yet happened and I doubt it ever will. I see nothing that 1st person offers over 3rd person isometric and honestly it can only serve to hinder the gameplay experience in this case.

[Mismatch]

[Aonaran]

And I can imagine a day when stupid people stop posting their stupid ideas and start realizing that said ideas are not the coolest things known to mankind, unfortunetly, that has not yet happened and I doubt it ever will. I see nothing that 1st person offers over 3rd person isometric and honestly it can only serve to hinder the gameplay experience in this case.

Thanks for your stupid input on the isometric view, you dumb dummy.

[Aonaran]

Add a rocket launcher, jackass. It's Morrowind with guns, remember?

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I know it wasn't anything fancy and doesn't work like today's first person views would work but it's the basic principal. I'm using it as an example the same way you'd take the original Doom and use it as an example to describe how you'd want guns and a first person view for Doom 3.

It's not the basic principle because things have changed so much since then, graphics were so much simpler that they could get away with one view mode being rather stunted. To have something like that now you'd either need two systems, much like if you included realtime and TB. Or you'd have to dumb one of the elements down, since everyone seems obessed with graphics these days then it most likely be the combat that would suffer.

The cornerstones of Fallout are the gameplay (SPECIAL, TB, Hexes etc), the writing/design (Plot, Characters, freedom of choice) and the setting (Retro Futuristic Pulp Sci-Fi). To change anyone of those is to fundamentally change the whole, Fallout isn't just a brand to stick on any old PA game, they tried that twice and look at them now. Going back to the flight sim example, you wouldn't stick the Flight Simulator brand on a side scroller arcade game just because you get to fly planes in both now would you?

[Wolfman Walt]

Add a rocket launcher, jackass. It's Morrowind with guns, remember?

They'll add katanas and trench coats most likely, so it's all still fairly accurate.

[PaladinHeart]

It's not the basic principle because things have changed so much since then, graphics were so much simpler that they could get away with one view mode being rather stunted. To have something like that now you'd either need two systems, much like if you included realtime and TB. Or you'd have to dumb one of the elements down, since everyone seems obessed with graphics these days then it most likely be the combat that would suffer.

Both Fallout 1 and 2 have real time and turn based gameplay. Which element was dumbed down?

I think you're downplaying today's technology too much. All they have to do is simply take their oblivion engine which already has realtime play and convert it to function as an isometric turn based game. Then they could simply use the realtime, which they already have, for the first person mode.

Why does it say punch instead of slash when the PC has a sword equipped? Furthermore that is Morrowind's Bloodmoon expansion. Anyone could recognize then that this screenshot is an obvious fake from that. The detail on the ghoul's outfit was quite convincing though. I hope I see ghouls that look just like that in Fallout 3.