What bothers me about Bethesda/FO3

[Cimmerian Nights]

Certainly, Beth likes to draw new customers in with ES. Maybe once the wee ones are hooked on that childish, sandbox Oblivion game, the kiddies'll grow up and want to play something a bit more RPGish and difficult. Stages. Baby steps. And now that I'm done shilling for Beth...

I think one of the smarter things BIS did back in the day was to take the Inifinity Engine, and package it 3 different ways - A middle of the road adventure/RPG - BG, a cash-cow Diablo competitor in Icewind Dale, and a quirky, philosophical, text intensive RPG for the hardcore crowd in PS:T. I'm not saying that IE in and of itself was any good, just the fact that they had the vision to take it in three different directions in an attempt to reach three different audiences, instead of deluding themselves into thinking they can cater to everyone

I think really beyond this though is that Beth seems way too willing to pander to munchkins and the ADD crowd. I don't think that crowd is big on the whole "choice & consequence" aspect of RPGs. Hearing them speak, they're all about teh Freedum - like the freedom to be a member of the BOS, the slavers, NCR Rangers, and raiders all at the same time with no conflict.

[box]

My brother is playing through Morrowind for a second time right now, and he's the leader of the Thieves' Guild, the Mages' Guild, the Fighters' Guild, House Atreides or some shit, and the Morag Tong Assassins.

That's ridiculous!

And that's the kind of "limitation" that Beth wanted to get rid of in Oblivion. Because in Morrowind, you had to choose one house to do missions for, and the missions were performed at the expense of the other houses, so...

But if yuou think about it, really, the concept is little more than Grand Theft Auto, especially with this latest shitfest San Andreas.

Maybe if the pukes could sit through a game of FO. Now, I know FO doesn't have any Vertex Pip Shading or HDL Flux Capacitors but, maybe, then they'd know true freedom as opposed to freddom to go around and collect all the hidden packages and run drugs in an ice cream truck.

Which was fun, but hardly an RPG.

fuckin' snots

[Blargh]

WELL I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU ('cept I do*), 'box', but I giddily role played selling drugs to minors. The quaint conveyance turned the whole affair quite acidesque. Had a short lived gas. And went about my day.

Probably a sign that I'm possessed of a greater imagination than thou, or some such rot. Even with SHINEE GRAFIX.

Oho.

*Or do I ?

[box]

There were minors in GTA games?! What version were you playing?

Then there would be two game franchises with the wonderful, marvelous option of torching kiddies with flamethrowers.

[VasikkA]

My brother is playing through Morrowind for a second time right now, and he's the leader of the Thieves' Guild, the Mages' Guild, the Fighters' Guild, House Atreides or some shit, and the Morag Tong Assassins.

That's ridiculous!

Well, you can become the made man for all four families in New Reno in Fallout 2. I believe you also can collect all the special reputations in Fallout 2, depending on which order you acquire them. I once tried to do that in Fallout 2 but fucked it up at some point. You can become a slaver even though you've been extremely 'good' in the past but not vice versa. I know it's advanced, but still an interesting fact.

[St. Toxic]

Basicly, when a conflict like that arises, there should be a change to the reputation description. Good guy slaver -- "You carry the mark of the slavers guild." instead of "Gosh you sell people ". Hell, maybe I infiltrated the slavers to get all the people out eh, or maybe I was forced to join ala the Postman? Who knows? I don't.

On a side note, looking at the wiki, we've got two positive sexual reputations, and no negative ones. That's a bit of a shame, don't you think? Balance it out, I'd say, with "AIDS! STAY AWAY" and "Crap in bed" reputations. And the ability to loose your genetals in battle.

[Blargh]

Taking away their weapons. Two at a time. Olol.

Mrs. Bishop - 'That is . . that . . WHAT IS THAT !?'
CHOSUN WUN - 'Umm . . my . . . foot ?'
Mrs. Bishop - 'GTFO !'
CHOSUN WUN - ':sadblinky:'

Hilarious. STDs and mutilations (not just of the intimate variety) would have added much to that puerile mentality that so smeared Fallout 2.

minors

Of course not ! They always made a point of exceeding the controversy-for-the-sake-of quota, ergo no childs. But they were there ! Just as I made a point of making a point of not having to play the game, even wasting my time doing so, by virtue of my superior mind and the role playing opportunities it afforded from the sandscape that is contemporary computer based entertainment. Ha.

. . .

You had to be there. Or not.

[box]

Conflicts of interest are nonexistent in TESO. If you're in a competing group, and you want to join the other side, it should be difficult, or at least a different experience than walking in 'clean slate.' You could be made man of all the New Reno families, but only one at a time. That makes sense.

Toxic, how about renouncing your affiliations? Hell, an ex-slaver might endear himself to the Rangers maybe more than some guy with no past at all could. An ex-slaver might have to take a test, like run an infiltration mission a la Vortis in NCR, but it could be done. Maybe you could rise up in two groups simultaneously, but you'd have to be careful. And some factions, unscurpulous types like Hubologists, might just string you along, in hopes of subverting the other group which you lead.

I love being the Arena champion in TESO and not even the goddamned policy mule fucking wig selling elf fucker at the front gate recongizes me as such. Huh? Who the fuck have you been taking bets on for the last month you fucking midget? Far cry from walking into a New Reno bar and getting free drinks as 'champ.' And that's only 10% of it.

Conflicts of interest mean even a modicum of linearity, and definite causality. Sometimes I think that Oblvion is actually more 'non-linear' than FallOut. Of course, 'linearity' is subjective, and there is no causality whatsoever in ES games, so just what difference does teh freedum make when you have teh freedum to tumble rats off a cliff?

Oh, and Blargh, that really did sound like a cut-and-paste job from a TES forum. Really, that was great.

The other month, when Media Play was closing, I went over there to find anything akin to a bargain. I knew what not to expect, but more importantly I ran into somebody's grandpa at the store. Guy was 70 and he was an avid gamer, talking to me about video cards and new games and shit. I was kinda creeped out. I mean, my dad is in his early 50s and he playes as many pc games as I do, but I figured my father was an anomaly. Besides, my dad knows squat about pc's, and I even install the games for him. My mother had a brief addiction to tetris and mario, and then she quit cold turkey. Anyways, this old guy loved those WW2 games, and he loved that King Kong game, and really he sounded like he could've been his own 12 y/o grandson. I'm recommeding games to him and he's never even heard of them, or he's like "I remember that" like I'm talking about the fucking Atari 2600.

What this as to do with anything I don't know, but at 25 I'm really starting to get teh feeling that I'm outgrowing video games. Or the sales demographic is passing me by. Just as I'm able to drop increasing amounts of disposable income on my passtime, games become increasingly unpalatable. That's why I keep my fingers crossed for FO3.

[St. Toxic]

Conflicts of interest are nonexistent in TESO. If you're in a competing group, and you want to join the other side, it should be difficult, or at least a different experience than walking in 'clean slate.' You could be made man of all the New Reno families, but only one at a time. That makes sense.

Sure does. It was a brilliant piece of Last Man Standing antics. You could do a bit of pitting them against each other, or just grab as much as possible from each of the families to make a buck. And it feels like you could get in some heavy shit playing that game too far, doesn't it? They are gangsters afterall.

Toxic, how about renouncing your affiliations? Hell, an ex-slaver might endear himself to the Rangers maybe more than some guy with no past at all could. An ex-slaver might have to take a test, like run an infiltration mission a la Vortis in NCR, but it could be done. Maybe you could rise up in two groups simultaneously, but you'd have to be careful. And some factions, unscurpulous types like Hubologists, might just string you along, in hopes of subverting the other group which you lead.

What, you're asking me? I mean, the slavers are quite special -- they're likely the result of former kkk members merging their love fluids with some Holnists from another dimension -- and as such they're generally considered pretty gosh darn rotten ( aldoh I'd say being a citizen of Vault City would be a much worse reputation twister ). Renouncing your slaver status should be an option, but as such it'd be better if you had to renounce it every time someone goes "Gurgh slaver.", and not like slipping a note to the proper authorities about your current clan status, setting the record straight once and for all. And just because you no longer have anything to do with the slavers guild, shouldn't mean everyone's ok with it -- you're still hated, right, only some will be more accepting of it. So better would be just to buy a hat to cover the tatoo and never really mention what you've been up to.

Rising up in two groups simultaniously, totally a good idea. Not every group is unfriendly to eachother, and not every group has the resources to find out what you're up to once you leave their territory -- but as you said, danger follows and in the end you'll have to choose between them ( if they're rival groups ) or, ofcourse, choose yourself.

I love being the Arena champion in TESO and not even the goddamned policy mule fucking wig selling elf fucker at the front gate recongizes me as such. Huh? Who the fuck have you been taking bets on for the last month you fucking midget? Far cry from walking into a New Reno bar and getting free drinks as 'champ.' And that's only 10% of it.

Unrewarding gameworld, sure. Hell, even the quests were completely pointless, as far as I noticed. Just a bit of money//a magical penis ring and two lines of praise, and then you and everyone else forgets about it forever.

Conflicts of interest mean even a modicum of linearity, and definite causality. Sometimes I think that Oblvion is actually more 'non-linear' than FallOut. Of course, 'linearity' is subjective, and there is no causality whatsoever in ES games, so just what difference does teh freedum make when you have teh freedum to tumble rats off a cliff?

There's limitation and then there's retarded limitation, like invisible walls and unbreakable doors and absence of unhappy thoughts and immortal npc's and lack of moral choice etc etc. That's pretty gosh darn linear -- the game is basicly telling me what not to do. It's in no way a question of linearity when you're choosing a at the cost of b or vice versa, it's a question of realism. It's like wanting to wield and use every gun in the game at the same time, because they have different up and downsides. As far as I know, no fan has ever asked a company for that yet, because, while it is the same gosh darn thing as joining 4 competing factions without any trouble at all, it's so far considered too unrealistic ( and dumb ) to implent. Perhaps in a few years, I don't know.

The other month...

We have a local guy around as well -- Antimeasure. He's like 54 or something, and yet an avid Operation : Flashpoint fan.

[box]

No shit. That's cool. Gaming grandpas. They'll know what their grandkids are talking about, which is cool.

So do you think some scheme whereby you can renounce any affiliation is a good idea, or maybe divorcing yourself of an affiliation should only come the old fashioned way?And yeah, New Reno really did have a Fistful feel to it, didn't it? Was nice. There was even the whole Good, Bad, Ugly thing with Pretty Boy Lloyd and Boss Salvatore's money. Funny shit. Now those kinds of pop culture references I can live with.

Well, I learned early on that the head honchos of families are not ones wth whom to fuck. My standard formula was to be polite to everyone but Bishop, since I'm going to kill them all in the end anyways it only helped me... I always loved how you gain karma and reputation for wiping out pimps and mobsters in New Reno. Nice touch.

Slavers are kinda like Holnists aren't they? I was kinda looking forward to BIS FO3 just because of an expanded and warring NCR, which as I recall was even mentioned by name in the book. And I heard they made that book into a movie, but that it was awful. I heard Waterworld was book once, too, but I've neither seen that movie nor read that book... It has occurred to me that Kevin Costner can't act, and even silly, fun, midless stuff like 3000mi to Graceland is ruined by his deadpan, shit acting. He's even worse than Nicholas Cage.

Anyways, many grievances with this Oblivion business. And even though I could loosely call myself a 'fan' of Daggerfall, even Morrowind, I'll tell you if I were one of those dumb fucks on TES I'd be pissed that they made a game for me and my 8 y/o friends and not for the adult I want to be someday. I mean, it's so simple. It's so simplistic that it's just downright rootarded. Really, I used to think FO3 would suck if it was Morrowind with guns, but now I'm even more afraid of FO3 being Oblvion with guns. And that sucks.

[sodash]

i must admit you gayz that this is very quality argue obaut future of FO and RPG-ing.
in my opinion this is how Fallout.org should sound like.

maybe we lose the battle, but we win the war.

for the truth, for the honor and the chosen one

[TelemachusSneezed]

This entire conversation brought some thoughts to my mind.

A questurn: should the main character be a perpetual loner, someone always just looking for the next quick buck; or should the player be able to build affiliations into a network of groups and individuals that can be used to forward one's own personal goals? Why shouldn't I be able to have Jimmy the Jet-dealer assassinate the top-dog of a crime family, after which I can take my place as head of the family since I've managed to sleep with his wife and daughter before he died? A nice tidy income, good weapons, an army... very interesting.

What kind of game would this be? I don't want Fallout to turn into some sort of "reality simulator," but some element of politics would be a welcome addition to an already interesting game series. That's really what you two are talking about: political maneuvering. This is not to say that a certain element of politics was not involved in the Fallout games, but the elements were underdeveloped and deterministic.

I'm thinking that the first reponses I get will be "that ain't what Fallout is about," but then again, it is better than some of the alternatives if the main character were to simply be a loner. That is, loners really only have one function in the end: hack n' slash!

i must admit you gayz

I'll admit you gays as well. You're good people.

[VasikkA]

A questurn: should the main character be a perpetual loner, someone always just looking for the next quick buck; or should the player be able to build affiliations into a network of groups and individuals that can be used to forward one's own personal goals?

The optimal answer would be both; the possibility to be a lone wolf as well as a well-known cosmopolite of the wastes should exist and should be completely up to the player. Both approaches should have advantages and disadvantages(for example, solving certain quests is easier if you have a large network of 'friends' but on the other hand you lose your anonymity). In Fallout 2, people recognized you by your reputations and allegiances and adjusted their reaction accordingly, if you had acquired said reputations that is. Your actions in-game should be noted, not only in the end slideshow, but also by NPCs in-game whom it may concern.

Why shouldn't I be able to have Jimmy the Jet-dealer assassinate the top-dog of a crime family, after which I can take my place as head of the family since I've managed to sleep with his wife and daughter before he died? A nice tidy income, good weapons, an army... very interesting.

Sounds good, but also preferably pissing some people off while doing that(rival gangs, crime boss's son or some unknown to-be-discovered faction). Or the option that Jimmy the Jet-dealer is a snitch and instead sends the gorillaz after you. You know, the sort of outcome you wouldn't expect in Morrowblivion.

What kind of game would this be? I don't want Fallout to turn into some sort of "reality simulator," but some element of politics would be a welcome addition to an already interesting game series. That's really what you two are talking about: political maneuvering. This is not to say that a certain element of politics was not involved in the Fallout games, but the elements were underdeveloped and deterministic.

As long as it isn't overdone and they don't add any useless stuff, like owning a castle in Baldur's Gate 2.

I'm thinking that the first reponses I get will be "that ain't what Fallout is about," but then again, it is better than some of the alternatives if the main character were to simply be a loner. That is, loners really only have one function in the end: hack n' slash!

Nah, all reasonable suggestions are welcome to the Fallout gameverse.

That's funny, I associate being a loner with threat evasion and stealth.

[TelemachusSneezed]

The optimal answer would be both; the possibility to be a lone wolf as well as a well-known cosmopolite of the wastes should exist and should be completely up to the player.

Absomalutely. That would make for an amazing amount of replayability, and being able to lead game characters to think you are going in one direction and then suddenly switching would be a wonderful proof that Bethesda is capable of moving in an original direction.

That brings up another thought: most of the meaningful characters (certainly not all) would have to have some sort of rudimentary, simulated psyche built-in in order to make their interaction with the Fallout environment convincing. I wonder how hard this would be.

Both approaches should have advantages and disadvantages(for example, solving certain quests is easier if you have a large network of 'friends' but on the other hand you lose your anonymity).

Yeah, definitely. Also, since being at the center of a network brings complications into one's life, there should be pitfalls created by people, such as your most trusted advisor attempting to have you do something that would unknowingly harm you.

In Fallout 2, people recognized you by your reputations and allegiances and adjusted their reaction accordingly, if you had acquired said reputations that is. Your actions in-game should be noted, not only in the end slideshow, but also by NPCs in-game whom it may concern.

This all amount to a "karma check," whereby one's reputation number determined his level, right?

It seems like there needs to be a more complicated implementation of "reputation." For instance, it's pretty strange that *every* town you came upon knew right away who you were and what you had done. It seems like there should be some time-delay implemented depending on the magnitude of your actions.

...also preferably pissing some people off while doing that(rival gangs, crime boss's son or some unknown to-be-discovered faction). Or the option that Jimmy the Jet-dealer is a snitch and instead sends the gorillaz after you.

Ja, sehr lustig. I'd enjoy seeing that.

[aries100]

I've just wanted to know about this quote:

"So they went through the trouble of acquiring the license, and can do what they want with it..."

Is this true ??

Legally, I mean, that Bethsoft can do whatever they want with it i.e. make a game they so desire without any consideration whatso-ever for the original IP's content or the lore in the Fallout universe ??

The reason, I'm asking this is that I don't think that Obsidian would be allowed to make a game that strayed very far from the D&D universe of Forgotten Realm lore, when they made NWN2.

I mean, the story should be set in the Forgotten Realms, in Neverwinter and surrounding areas,
which means you can't just go to the Torment universe of Forgotten Realms.

I guess, what I'm asking is this:

Did Bethsoft (and Zenimax) just buy the headline
"Fallout 3" or was there some conditions attached to this license ??

If there wasn't any conditions, well, then, yes ---

then Bethsoft can do whatever they want with Fallout 3.

[VasikkA]

Legally, I mean, that Bethsoft can do whatever they want with it i.e. make a game they so desire without any consideration whatso-ever for the original IP's content or the lore in the Fallout universe ??

There is no official 'lore' in the Fallout universe and if there were I doubt Interplay would care enough to sue them for damaging the brand image(as they didn't do with FO:BoS).

The reason, I'm asking this is that I don't think that Obsidian would be allowed to make a game that strayed very far from the D&D universe of Forgotten Realm lore, when they made NWN2.

That depends on the franchise owner, WotC/Hasbro in this case, whether the product is harmful to their property. I don't think they can sue Obsidian for making a crappy game, but certainly if it infringes WotC's other franchises.

Bethsoft can do whatever they want with Fallout 3.

Pretty much.

[Keserian]

And now for your token lurker.

Look, I understand what Bethsoft is doing, even though the Fallout Community doesn't like it. When a gaming company steps outside of what they specialize in you get a buggy piece of crap like Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, made by, guess who... Troika. Same folks who made Arcanum, which has been called "Fallout 2 with magic" by many (including myself. Hell, the engine is almost the same, even the vehicle support. Although it wasn't in the game proper, it's bloody easy to add a car to the game.)

Look, Bethsoft is a company, they are going to go where they think the money is. They have absolutely no need to "honor the Fallout tradition" by using things like a semi-isometric view. Although I admit that it would be nice to have a game that follows the traditions set down by Fallout 1 and 2, I doubt such a game would be possible due to the general concentration on graphics over substance. As well, the Fallout franchise is generally unknown to most "modern" gamers. Those gamers do know about Oblivion however.

As to the IP stuff, as far as I know, the only way to sue a company would be under a loss of business claim, and even then it's so shaky that I doubt a judge would sit through more than the case briefs before throwing it out.

As to the game, I personally would like to trust Bethsoft, they have a decent reputation at making what I consider to be kick-ass games. And to be honest, I'd rather have "Fallout 3: Oblivion with Guns" than "Van Buren: What it could have been!"

[Wolfman Walt]

Yes, I like Fallout. Yes, I like Fallout 2. Even Brotherhood of Steel had its merits. I enjoyed Morrowind, and I play Oblivion. They are four separate games, so stop comparing them!

Math much? Those are 5 seperate games.

[PsychoSniper]

and 3 of the five suck more than a $1 whore.

[VasikkA]

Look, Bethsoft is a company, they are going to go where they think the money is. They have absolutely no need to "honor the Fallout tradition" by using things like a semi-isometric view. Although I admit that it would be nice to have a game that follows the traditions set down by Fallout 1 and 2, I doubt such a game would be possible due to the general concentration on graphics over substance.

I can't deny this, but it doesn't mean we as players cannot have any demands on what we'd like Fallout 3 to be. We also have the right to accuse a game company for making a bad game or being too market-centric. It's the same as an artist or a movie studio compromises its piece of art for the sake of commercial success. However, it's worth mentioning that most gaming classics are distinguished for being different from the norm. Mainstream games quickly fall into oblivion despite being profitable. Bethesda as a publisher has the possibility to choose what they want to prioritize.

As well, the Fallout franchise is generally unknown to most "modern" gamers. Those gamers do know about Oblivion however.

The Elder Scrolls franchise was unknown to most gamers before Oblivion and probably will be again after a couple of years.