Six New Shots From The Fall

Comment on events and happenings in the Fallout community.
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Post by Saint_Proverbius »

Carsten Strehse wrote:Aha... :confused2: I always thought worldwide standards for the usage of computer games would make sense.
Sounds like COMMUNISM.

But seriously, this is a problem. What happens to all the gamers who don't like those standards? I seriously HATE real time with pause. It's dull and boring because it's automated and abstracts the player from the characters. While I am willing to play them occationally, if they're all the same schema, I'm inclined to buy less and less games - and while I may be in the minority, I think there's enough people who buy games that use other systems to make a rather big dent in sales of games.

Being a small developer, you should fear this kind of thinking, because if all games had universal controls and standards, that means you're just going to be competing with BIG DEVELOPERS based solely on your name versus their name. This kind of thinking is grand for BIG DEVELOPERS, but it sucks for you.

And what's the point of buying NEW GAME #68 if it's just like OLD GAME #1 through OLD GAME #67?
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Post by MeatPoPsicKle »

Saint, I know what you are waiting for. as we all wait for the same thing. The next Fallout. I don't mean another game in the Fallout franchise (remember when that only applied to fast food chains?), you are waiting for the next big innovative thing to come down the pike. The kind of game that sets standards for years to come. There has been less innovation in this industry in the last 5 years BECAUSE of standardization. When advertising sells your game, not the quality nor the content, what is the average gamer getting? A big ole shovelful of shitpie. Not innovation, not thinking that in any way strays outside the mainstream, not anything that isn't put together by consensus.

The ultimate gizzfest for these corporate types is the console market. ONE PLATFORM=0% devtime for game engine. You would think what this would mean that designers could concentrate FULLY on content and quality of gameplay. What it actually translated to in the real world was 'How cheaply can we hire some monkeys to throw together a bunch of levels, hire some cheap fresh outta collij gradjit artists to pretty up the whole abortion, and oh, uh plot? We got Bryan over in marketing to do a survey to find out exactly what we need as far as elements of a game to go with that'. No vision, no focus, just pure unadulterated Madison Avenue bullshit.

This obviously doesn't translate to a good atmosphere to encourage innovation or excellence. When someone comes along, and takes the tack that sales are unimportant, what is important is finishing (that means FIXING EVERYTHING) a game, holding to a vision, and pouring your heart into something that isn't 'someone else's trainwreck', then and only then will you see something that blows you away, and isn't the clone of something else you've already seen done WAY too many times.
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Post by MeatPoPsicKle »

ugh I didn't do that, sorry about the double post
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Post by Carsten Strehse »

> But seriously, this is a problem. What happens to all the gamers who don't like those standards?

Well, with "control standards" I meant only the pure usage of a game. A new FPS should use basic control standards of succesfull FPSs, a new RTS should use basic control standards of succesfull RTSs and TB games should use basic control standards of succesfull TB games. Why should one change something completly that is already working? If a FO3 would be still TB, but would have a completly different battle control that has nothing to do with FO1+2 you would have the right to ask "Why do you changed it? It worked very well!".
That doesn't mean that devs should'nt try to tweak and improve existing control standards! But even with some improvements and changes the player must have the feeling that "he comes home" when he starts playing. That's the reason why we would never use a keyboard/mouse thing without any menu in a party based RPG. Nobody would "feel home" controlling the game.

> I seriously HATE real time with pause. It's dull and boring because it's automated and abstracts the player from the characters. While I am willing to play them occationally, if they're all the same schema, I'm inclined to buy less and less games - and while I may be in the minority, I think there's enough people who buy games that use other systems to make a rather big dent in sales of games.

Sadly not... Believe it or not, for years TB was the only thing I played. Ultima serie, Bard's Tale and also P&P RPGs are based on TB battles. That's where are started gaming. With all respect to RT I think it can never give me the same gameplay feeling as TB.
However, I can't develop games based on my personal taste. A good example for a new (and great!) TB game that isn't selling is Silent Storm. All reviews are between 80 and 90 % and everybody was talking about it, but nobody except the TB fans buy it. The game is really huge fun, but nobody cares. The dev may go broke. :(

> Being a small developer, you should fear this kind of thinking, because if all games had universal controls and standards, that means you're just going to be competing with BIG DEVELOPERS based solely on your name versus their name. This kind of thinking is grand for BIG DEVELOPERS, but it sucks for you.

We compete with bigger developers using the quality of the game. The Fall will be the first post-apoc RPG in 3D ever and the first try to innervate the PA genre for years. As you know PA games are a risk from their nature, but at the end I'm absolutly sure that the RPG players of all genres will love the game. They will get an entree into the post-apoc topic and the community will grow.

> And what's the point of buying NEW GAME #68 if it's just like OLD GAME #1 through OLD GAME #67?

Like I said, we're not the ones who develop FPS #1.000.000. We go for some risk developing for a difficult genre. What game would you compare to The Fall from the scenario, the technical side, the story etc.? Keep in mind that millions of games are developed each year, but you won't find that much games that are comparable to The Fall.
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Post by Role-Player »

Carsten Strehse wrote:Sadly not... Believe it or not, for years TB was the only thing I played. Ultima serie, Bard's Tale and also P&P RPGs are based on TB battles. That's where are started gaming. With all respect to RT I think it can never give me the same gameplay feeling as TB.
However, I can't develop games based on my personal taste. A good example for a new (and great!) TB game that isn't selling is Silent Storm. All reviews are between 80 and 90 % and everybody was talking about it, but nobody except the TB fans buy it. The game is really huge fun, but nobody cares. The dev may go broke. :(
I think that it should be weighed if real time with pause actually helps the game or not, instead of developing it based on its probability to reach a certain target audience. As for SS, i'd like to know if its poor sales are actually derived from it being TB, and not of poor advertising.
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Post by Carsten Strehse »

> I think that it should be weighed if real time with pause actually helps the game or not, instead of developing it based on its probability to reach a certain target audience. As for SS, i'd like to know if its poor sales are actually derived from it being TB, and not of poor advertising.

It was advertised very well and it got big articles, but even 60% RT combat simulations with less marketing sell better than this great game.

The younger gaming generation just prefers RT (with or without pause)and I can't see anything one could do to change their minds. It's as hopeless as convincing core TB fans of RT.
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Post by Carsten Strehse »

> I too hope Damian is working out for you. It's gotta be better than working someplace where you are just waiting for the hammer to come down.

Yes, Damiens work is great. He just designed two new factions. We'll show them on the The Fall website shortly.
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Post by Role-Player »

The RT preference nowadays comes from things like the inception of IE combat (real time with pause), Diablo-like games (real time), and the somehow twisted idea that RTWP is better than TB. We could start distributing flyers pointing out why TB is better than RT, some outdoor meetings, followed by a campaign of door to door preaching, and webmail advertisement. If all else fails, we can kidnap people's pets and use them as blackmail material. >_>

But truly, the problem here is RTWP itself. I could go with either TB (a personal favourite), or pure RT. RTWP just doesn't make up for either. Like i asked before, does it actually help the game? If it was TB, varied tactics could be planned and combat would have the potential to be more strategic. If it was RT, fast-paced action would ensue, and player reflexes would dictate the outcome of battle. RTWP just removes the ability to do a step by step planning (as its all going in real time), and removes player input by overriding reflex-based gameplay with the ability to pause. :anger:
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Post by Spazmo »

What're you talking about, Strehse? Silent Storm has been selling very well in Russia since its late 2003 release over there. It's no wonder nobody's making TB games if everyone makes the same stupid assumptions as you. TB games can sell very well, just like RT games. Hell, more RT games have flopped and flopped hard than TB ones, if only because more people are making RT games with blind faith in the Feargusian belief that "REAL TIME = BIOWARE FANS = SLAM DUNK!"
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Post by Core Puzzle »

Carsten Strehse wrote:Because it's comfortable to see the complete inventory of one character for trading. No scrolling or something, just drag'n'drop.
Drag 'n' drop can be horrible. A simple right-click to transfer items would be much appreciated, especially if it takes 5 seconds to move the mouse across the screen. Dragging and dropping 20 items one by one = not teh funz.
However, I can't develop games based on my personal taste.
That's too bad.
The younger gaming generation just prefers RT
Ah. I'll shut up.
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Post by Mr. Teatime »

Silent Storm has sold well enough for the publisher to approve an expansion pack.
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Post by Role-Player »

Also note that SS's would-be commercial failure is also due to the game market being saturated with WW-themed games. Games like Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Operation Flashpoint, Hidden and Dangerous 2, the Medal of Honor series, Battlefield 1942, etc.. Even IL2-Sturmovik (and its XP, Forgotten Battles), for that matter.
Spazmo wrote:Hell, more RT games have flopped and flopped hard than TB ones, if only because more people are making RT games with blind faith in the Feargusian belief that "REAL TIME = BIOWARE FANS = SLAM DUNK!"
How did it go? You just can't say Lionheart without laughing :lol:

EDIT: Don't forget SS lacks a certain feature which nowadays is, in my opinion, much more referential to players: multiplayer.
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Post by Carsten Strehse »

Spazmo wrote:What're you talking about, Strehse? Silent Storm has been selling very well in Russia since its late 2003 release over there. It's no wonder nobody's making TB games if everyone makes the same stupid assumptions as you. TB games can sell very well, just like RT games. Hell, more RT games have flopped and flopped hard than TB ones, if only because more people are making RT games with blind faith in the Feargusian belief that "REAL TIME = BIOWARE FANS = SLAM DUNK!"
You shouldn't start discussions about topics you're not familiar with. The Russian market makes less than 4% of the necessary income for a worldwide distributed game. Even if your game is #1 at the Russian charts for six month the sales are much too low to decide if a game becomes a financial success.
Also your last statement makes no sense from the business site. Name just one real successfull TB game of the last 3 years that sold at least 300.000 units worldwide. You can't name one, because a) you don't have accesss to any industry related numbers and b) there's none.
If you would have access to industry numbers you would see that it's no problem to name dozens of RTS games that sold 500.000 to 1 mio. copies.

"The worldwide situation that TB games aren't selling as well as RT games was caused by people like Carsten Strehse who posts that TB games aren't selling as well as RT games!"

I mean... If you can't see how rediculous your point of view is I can't help you.

P.S.: Don't let us start another flame here. Even if I think we both would have our fun others could get bored.
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Post by Carsten Strehse »

> Drag 'n' drop can be horrible. A simple right-click to transfer items would be much appreciated, especially if it takes 5 seconds to move the mouse across the screen. Dragging and dropping 20 items one by one = not teh funz.

100 % agree. That's why you can stack items holding CTRL.
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Post by Carsten Strehse »

Mr. Teatime wrote:Silent Storm has sold well enough for the publisher to approve an expansion pack.
Ever thought of the idea that an expansion is developed very fast, with very low money and can be used to compensate a loss?
As you may know the publisher of SS, JoWooD, was a former partner of me. Believe me, if they could choose to have a another game like SS (TB) or like Spellforce (RT) they would choose the last one. Spellforce will reach 150.000 - 180.000 units in Germany alone. SS has difficulties to reach 15.000.

But once again: This is no situation I like or something! It's sad, sad, sad that such great games as SS aren't selling and other -less innovative- RT-titles do.
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Post by LlamaGod »

Hmm, Real-Time sells, you say.

Certainly didnt work with Soldiers of Anarchy there.

Despite the number of Silent Storm sold, every review i've seen of it has been very positive, which cannot be said of your past efforts and probably wont be of your future ones.

Go back to the drawing board, come up with something original, and stop watching Mad Max and playing Fallout for about a year or two. Maybe you might come up with something good without trying to imitate everything.




But I doubt it.
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Post by Spazmo »

Strehse, of course there aren't many TB games that have sold huge in past years (though they exist--Civilization III, anyone?) because people aren't making them. It's a lot like living in New York City and saying that you have a magic rock that keeps man eating tigers away. You can't know for sure that it is or isn't a magic rock because there aren't any tigers around.

Once again, the lack of huge sales for TB games is not due to a lack of interest in them on the part of the consumer. It's due to a ridiculous idea that real time games automatically appeal to everyone more than TB ones.

Like Killzig said, if you want people who'll believe everything you say and buy The Fall out of desperation since they're not getting FO3, stick to NMA.
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Post by Carsten Strehse »

> Hmm, Real-Time sells, you say.

Who said that? Seems like you read another forum than me.

> Certainly didnt work with Soldiers of Anarchy there.

Uh?! SOA sold very well worldwide. What makes you think something different?

> Despite the number of Silent Storm sold, every review i've seen of it has been very positive, which cannot be said of your past efforts and probably wont be of your future ones.

Well, if you would be able to read other languages than your own you would know that SOA got much better reviews worldwide.

> Go back to the drawing board, come up with something original, and stop watching Mad Max and playing Fallout for about a year or two. Maybe you might come up with something good without trying to imitate everything.

Thanks for the tip! :hahano:
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Post by Sol Invictus »

You have no idea what you are talking about, Carsten. Allow me to address your points with some actual facts.
That doesn't mean that devs should'nt try to tweak and improve existing control standards! But even with some improvements and changes the player must have the feeling that "he comes home" when he starts playing. That's the reason why we would never use a keyboard/mouse thing without any menu in a party based RPG. Nobody would "feel home" controlling the game.
Do you think you can honestly compare a mouse and keyboard driven game with a turn-based control set up and call it the same thing? As I recall, we were discussing the merits of a turn based system over a real time system and nothing else. Do stay on topic.

In any case, there is a big difference between adding improvements to a pre-existing system versus reinventing the wheel. Just as the old adage goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
However, I can't develop games based on my personal taste. A good example for a new (and great!) TB game that isn't selling is Silent Storm. All reviews are between 80 and 90 % and everybody was talking about it, but nobody except the TB fans buy it. The game is really huge fun, but nobody cares. The dev may go broke. :(
This is highly illogical and what you say has absolutely no bearing in reality. Silent Storm has only just been released in the United States so sales figures aren't available right now. It might not be selling as well as the Sims games do, but I don't think that anybody can actually expect to compete with a game that's sold over 16 million copies thus far so comparing Silent Storm with mass market games like The Sims is hardly fair and to be realistic and to the point, it isn't as if your own game could ever hope to achieve what Silent Storm has not.

It should also be noted that Silent Storm sold out on the first day of its release in the United Kingdom and several other European countries which still amount for a very large portion of the market. While I do not have the sales figures with me, I can safely say that the sales figures were high enough to warrant not only an expansion for Silent Storm (Entitled Sentinels) as well as a sequel. I ask, would a company that you claim is about to shut down due to lack of funding have the budget to make these games? It sounds like you just pulled that one right out of your ass.
We compete with bigger developers using the quality of the game. Th... *snip hype bullshit*
Good luck! None of your older games have proven to be worth more than twenty minutes of most peoples' attention so I don't see why all of that is about to suddenly change just because you suddenly hired a former QA guy from the now defunct Black Isle Studios to work on your title.
Like I said, we're not the ones who develop FPS #1.000.000. We go for some risk developing for a difficult genre. What game would you compare to The Fall from the scenario, the technical side, the story etc.? Keep in mind that millions of games are developed each year, but you won't find that much games that are comparable to The Fall.
That's because most games don't have the same propensity for 'sucking' as much as the ones you make. You are truly unique in that area so I'm sure you're really proud of that.
It was advertised very well and it got big articles, but even 60% RT combat simulations with less marketing sell better than this great game.
Pulling more figures out of your arse? You should realize that there are not very many TB games on the market so it's hardly fair to compare a TB game with a shoestring budget and absolutely no PR like Massive Assault with an Electronic Arts juggernaut like C&C Generals. I can almost guarantee you that an EA-produced turn based game would sell just as well, or possibly even better than their current strategy lineup. The point is that they aren't making any so your comparison is completely fallacious.
The younger gaming generation just prefers RT (with or without pause)and I can't see anything one could do to change their minds. It's as hopeless as convincing core TB fans of RT.
Why would you hope to convince the younger generation (presumably teenagers) to buy your games when the majority of the market consists of gamers aged 18-25 years of age? If you did your research (and I'm implying right now that you are utterly clueless, should it escape you) you would know that women aged 18-25 consist of a large percentage of the gaming market... so why don't you make a game that's female or social oriented, like The Sims if you're so bent on winning the market over to your side?

Statistics: http://www.womengamers.com/interviews/idsa.html

Also your last statement makes no sense from the business site. Name just one real successfull TB game of the last 3 years that sold at least 300.000 units worldwide. You can't name one, because a) you don't have accesss to any industry related numbers and b) there's none.
If you would have access to industry numbers you would see that it's no problem to name dozens of RTS games that sold 500.000 to 1 mio. copies.
Don't ask questions if you intend to answer them yourself.

The Heroes of Might and Magic series has sold over a million plus copies and I do not think I need to mention how well Civilization and its sequels have sold over the years.

Civilization 3, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri and Disciples 2 have sold more than 300,000 copies - and these are games released in the past 3 years. I for one am completely certain that Civilization 3 managed to break the barrier you imposed by selling over 2 million or more copies.

Any more words?
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Post by Carsten Strehse »

> Once again, the lack of huge sales for TB games is not due to a lack of interest in them on the part of the consumer. It's due to a ridiculous idea that real time games automatically appeal to everyone more than TB ones.

Just give me one single serious proof for your statement. I don't want a dozen or something, one is completly enough.
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