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PaladinHeart
Strider
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Joined: 02 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 12:16 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I am wondering how I can start the first mission with a character prone, but later make him start other missions standing up?

I also need to have a few triggers that last throughout the entire campaign, such as ending the game whenever any of the characters die. Should I simply inform the player that they won't be able to complete the game if any of the PCs are killed?
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requiem_for_a_starfury
Hero of the Wastes
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Joined: 29 Oct 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 1:03 am Reply with quoteBack to top

[TBC]-PaladinHeart wrote:
I am wondering how I can start the first mission with a character prone, but later make him start other missions standing up?

I also need to have a few triggers that last throughout the entire campaign, such as ending the game whenever any of the characters die. Should I simply inform the player that they won't be able to complete the game if any of the PCs are killed?
If you are using a single player spawn, allowing the player to use/modify a prefab or create a new character, I don't think you can make the character start prone, best to have him/her start in a safe area where the player can adjust their stance before venturing into the fray.

If you set up your triggers, to end the game if someone is killed, in your first map and then save your triggers. You can load them into every subsequent map (before you start working on the local triggers) that'll save you having to keep setting them up.

I'd definately warn the player though a lot of people save and reload when someone dies anyway. Has anyone ever runout of recruits? Since you take a reputation loss when people die, I'd assume that if you took fatalities in every mission at some point you wouldn't be offered any more new recruits.

I was playing Star Trek Away Team, even though you have plenty of crew to choose from the game ends whenever you loose a team mate during a mission. Every crew member is a specialist in something and the missions are set up that you need everybody alive to be able to complete them, it's bloody annoying at times.
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OnTheBounce
TANSTAAFL
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Joined: 18 Apr 2002
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Location: Grafenwoehr, Oberpfalz, Bayern, Deutschland

PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 1:25 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Here's a word on starting people in PI 1 in any position besides Standing: Don't do it!

The reason I say this is because there is a bug in FoT that will cause the recruit's weapon skills that are modified by position to show up at their standard level, highlighted in blue, but when you change position the skills will lower. So you're essentially assigning a 'cruit a -5% or -15% penalty to weapons skills if you start them in Crouched or Prone positions. (I can't remember what the effect is on MW and UA skills, though.)

[TBC]-PaladinHeart wrote:
I also need to have a few triggers that last throughout the entire campaign, such as ending the game whenever any of the characters die. Should I simply inform the player that they won't be able to complete the game if any of the PCs are killed?


You can assign a Tag Name to every 'cruit that will die if a specific person dies during a mission. This would involve a "Quantity Unit" trigger. (If you're using a different Tag Name for each 'cruit it would turn into a lot of scripting work to include each one on every map, though.)

The other option would be to have a "Quantity Player" trigger that ended the mission [Action: End Mission (Fail Screen)] when Player 1 had more than 0 Deaths at Anywhere.

The problem is that you would have to include this/these trigger(s) on each and every map in your campaign, to include the Random Encounter Maps.

RfaSF: Are you sure about the Rep hit when loosing 'cruits? There is a trigger that causes a Rep loss for casualties in Brahmin Wood, but that's the only place where anything like that is scripted.

OTB


Last edited by OnTheBounce on Mon Feb 24, 2003 1:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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Red
Hero of the Glowing Lands
Hero of the Glowing Lands


Joined: 15 May 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 1:27 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Is there somewhere where all this little quirks in the engine are noted? I mean this isn't very obvious and quite annoying...
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OnTheBounce
TANSTAAFL
TANSTAAFL


Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 2257
Location: Grafenwoehr, Oberpfalz, Bayern, Deutschland

PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 1:37 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Red wrote:
Is there somewhere where all this little quirks in the engine are noted? I mean this isn't very obvious and quite annoying...


No, there isn't any compilation like that, Red. It might be a good idea to get something like that started, though. Things like the Position Bug and the Switching Player Index to 1 (requiring a quick-save and quick-load to enable the entity's Sentry Mode) should be listed in there for starters.

OTB
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Jimmyjay86
Hero of the Glowing Lands
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 1:43 am Reply with quoteBack to top

You could always overcompensate the stats of the character who started out prone.
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PaladinHeart
Strider
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Joined: 02 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 2:29 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Well the character in question is a melee specific character. I have noticed that he gets a HUGE bonus to his melee skills and suffers with his ranged weapons. He also starts out prone at the start of EVERY map thereafter. I'll just have to toggle a couple triggers around, which will fix it nicely.

The player deaths trigger seems the easier of the two options. I'll just implement that in every map. Plus it doesn't sound like it needs to be saved/pasted for each mission (simple, in a word). I was just hoping there was some universal trigger system like how the game ends if your main character dies.
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requiem_for_a_starfury
Hero of the Wastes
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Joined: 29 Oct 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 8:04 am Reply with quoteBack to top

OnTheBounce wrote:
RfaSF: Are you sure about the Rep hit when loosing 'cruits? There is a trigger that causes a Rep loss for casualties in Brahmin Wood, but that's the only place where anything like that is scripted. OTB
*embarassed* nope your right that's not in the standard version, it was something I added myself, along with changing the triggers conditions in Quincy so that all the hostage situations had to be resolved before the exit grids came on, changing the detonator that the Elder gives you in Brahmin Wood for a geiger counter, making it so that the vehicles had to be kept alive in all the maps and numerous other little changes. One of the first things I did with the editor, and I did it to my core folder, before I started to use -paths, forgotten that the game didn't come that way, made for more interesting playing though.

OnTheBounce wrote:
Things like the Position Bug and the Switching Player Index to 1 (requiring a quick-save and quick-load to enable the entity's Sentry Mode) should be listed in there for starters.
The PI switching bug gets sorted automatically by going to the world map, so it's really only standalone maps that you need to save and reload. If you're making a campaign, wouldn't it be smoother to have the NPCs available to join in neutral maps or after the mission has finished as a reward for completing the objectives. Like Marcus in Broken Hills would only join with you once you had sorted out the main quests in the town.

But it's a good idea to have a user-made user guide, perhaps it could include other things like how to make tilesets.
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OnTheBounce
TANSTAAFL
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 3:32 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

[TBC]-PaladinHeart wrote:
The player deaths trigger seems the easier of the two options. I'll just implement that in every map. Plus it doesn't sound like it needs to be saved/pasted for each mission (simple, in a word). I was just hoping there was some universal trigger system like how the game ends if your main character dies.


Nope, no universal. (BTW, does anyone remember the blurb about how the Main Character was supposed to go through a "dying" stage? Pity they didn't implement that.)

You're a bit more harsh than I am w/player deaths. I tailor the level of "acceptable losses" to the urgency of the mission. The usual point at which the mission will end is w/3 deaths, so a player can loose two 'cruits and still finish. (It also cuts down on the debrief scripting since I only need three options, one each for 0-2 deaths.) Of course, most players automatically reload when someone dies, so I'm probably wasting my time w/some of this...

requiem_for_a_3D_starfighter wrote:
*embarassed* nope your right that's not in the standard version, it was something I added myself, along with changing the triggers conditions in Quincy so that all the hostage situations had to be resolved before the exit grids came on, changing the detonator that the Elder gives you in Brahmin Wood for a geiger counter, making it so that the vehicles had to be kept alive in all the maps and numerous other little changes. One of the first things I did with the editor, and I did it to my core folder, before I started to use -paths, forgotten that the game didn't come that way, made for more interesting playing though.


I like some of your ideas, especially the issue w/the Geiger Counter. I personally wouldn't modify the core campaign, but that's because I keep it on my HD as both an example of how to do things, as well as how not to do things.

Regarding vehicles, one thing that always bothered me in the core campaign was that they didn't figure into the campaign very much. W/the exception of Macomb and St. Louis where they were mission essential you never heard about them again. Scripting to mention their destruction on subsequent maps (which, of course, assumes that one would have been able to take them on other maps) would have been nice, and also not having the Buggy and Scouter thrown in like afterthoughts.

OTB
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requiem_for_a_starfury
Hero of the Wastes
Hero of the Wastes


Joined: 29 Oct 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:12 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

OnTheBounce wrote:
requiem_for_a_3D_starfighter
Very Funny : )

OnTheBounce wrote:
I personally wouldn't modify the core campaign, but that's because I keep it on my HD as both an example of how to do things, as well as how not to do things.
Yeah I learnt that lesson, just from the fact I couldn't remember what changes I had made.

OnTheBounce wrote:
Regarding vehicles, one thing that always bothered me in the core campaign was that they didn't figure into the campaign very much. W/the exception of Macomb and St. Louis where they were mission essential you never heard about them again. Scripting to mention their destruction on subsequent maps (which, of course, assumes that one would have been able to take them on other maps) would have been nice, and also not having the Buggy and Scouter thrown in like afterthoughts.

OTB
That was another thing I changed about the campaign, (and quickly changed back again) I made all of the maps, except the underground ones, to allow vehicles. Except for a few maps Newton, Great Bend and Buena Vista you can drive just about anywhere, even without any tile editing. But the lack of any computer controlled vehicles or triggers to end the game if they are destroyed, seriously throws game balance out the window. The only real challenge was Scott City, going head to head with the Behemoths in a tank was quite fun.
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OnTheBounce
TANSTAAFL
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 11:34 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

requiem_for_a_starfury wrote:
Very Funny : )


I'm glad you liked that. :)

requiem_for_a_starfury wrote:
Yeah I learnt that lesson, just from the fact I couldn't remember what changes I had made.


Yes, that's one problem. I replayed the core campaign a couple of weeks ago up to Coldwater and was literally shocked at how different it was from my own material. It's amazing what a few changes like weapon AP costs can do for a game. :lol: Well, not to mention having a more balanced weapons catalogue that doesn't leave you w/only a handful of viable weapons...

requiem_for_a_starfury wrote:
Except for a few maps Newton, Great Bend and Buena Vista you can drive just about anywhere, even without any tile editing. But the lack of any computer controlled vehicles or triggers to end the game if they are destroyed, seriously throws game balance out the window. The only real challenge was Scott City, going head to head with the Behemoths in a tank was quite fun.


I like that Scott City idea. It would have been great if the designers had thrown the tank into that mission instead of Newton. If the PCs would have had to repair it and get some ammo for it from a well-guarded supply point then go rumbling around the map taking out Behemoths and Pac Bots that mission would have been vastly improved.

That mission would have been great for vehicles, actually. The well-varied terrain that restricts vehicles to certain areas and requires dismounting to clear buildings, etc., etc....mmmm...wasted potential, IMHO.

One thing about vehicles and balancing is that since there are no AI vehicles you have to rely on giving the enemy weapons that can and will kill the vehicle. That's not too much of a problem if you're giving the player the three lighter vehicles. But if you're talking about the Tank or APC you're making it a nasty place to wander around on foot in. (St. Louis is a great example of that.)

Buena Vista offers another look at how you can allow vehicles on a map, but restrict their passage. This way the characters have access to all of their gear if necessary, but don't have the advantage of the vehicle's armor. I like this idea, since I use a lot of things like Barricades that require explosives to neutralize. I don't want to accidentally cripple the player because he/she didn't lug every bit of TNT and Plastique onto the map, having left the bulk of it in his/her vehicle.

OTB
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requiem_for_a_starfury
Hero of the Wastes
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 12:16 am Reply with quoteBack to top

OnTheBounce wrote:
I'm glad you liked that. :)
Is this going to be a running gag now? : )

OnTheBounce wrote:
That mission would have been great for vehicles, actually. The well-varied terrain that restricts vehicles to certain areas and requires dismounting to clear buildings, etc., etc....mmmm...wasted potential, IMHO.
It's surprising where you can drive to on the maps, makes me wonder if they had originally planned to use the vehicles more.

OnTheBounce wrote:
One thing about vehicles and balancing is that since there are no AI vehicles you have to rely on giving the enemy weapons that can and will kill the vehicle. That's not too much of a problem if you're giving the player the three lighter vehicles. But if you're talking about the Tank or APC you're making it a nasty place to wander around on foot in. (St. Louis is a great example of that.)
IMHO the Behemoths are the only real challenge for the vehicles, most enemies are fairly useless with the RPG, even high level ones with high Big Guns tend to kill themselves and their team mates more often than the vehicles. Better to give them an M2 with .50cal DU.
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OnTheBounce
TANSTAAFL
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 12:27 am Reply with quoteBack to top

requiem_for_a_3D_starfighter wrote:
Is this going to be a running gag now? : )


Ask "Max_Violence". :lol:

requiem_for_a_3D_starfighter wrote:
It's surprising where you can drive to on the maps, makes me wonder if they had originally planned to use the vehicles more.


Yes, I wonder, too. It does seem that the vehicles were supposed to play a larger role and if you look on the back of the CD case you can barely make out that the tank was originally supposed to become available in Jefferson, and there's evidence in the various speech files that there was a lot of moving around of things like that. Oh well, when you dig a bit you see just how much potential this game had, if only it hadn't been rushed and the team working on it could have agreed on things more. (Too many cooks and all that...)

requiem_for_a_3D_starfighter wrote:
IMHO the Behemoths are the only real challenge for the vehicles, most enemies are fairly useless with the RPG, even high level ones with high Big Guns tend to kill themselves and their team mates more often than the vehicles. Better to give them an M2 with .50cal DU.


Yes, AI controlled character and High Explosives don't mix all that well. The heavier eweapons (i.e. Laser Gatling) would have been decent anti-tank weapons as well, not to mention the dreaded Gauss Minigun.

Also, anti-tank mines are a real pain in the arse since you can't detect traps from inside of a vehicle. I also noted that there is another anti-tank mine sprite included w/the game. It was, however, not used for any entity. They could have pushed the envelope a bit more on trap damage that way, putting a severly damaging mine that would do serious damage to even a tank on that map. Of course, you don't place burst-capable-weapon-equipped enemies around a minefield...

OTB
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PaladinHeart
Strider
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 3:37 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I have noticed that mines can and often do get destroyed too easily when a firefight breaks out. An easy solution, however, is to make them invulnerable to whatever gunfire is going on :)

Perhaps even invulnerable to everything if you want them to be really hard traps to remove.. oh, wait a second, can you actually change mine stats? I think you can modify hit points and such on items but im not sure if this works for traps or not. Could you give them more hit points, resistance, etc..?
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OnTheBounce
TANSTAAFL
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 5:09 am Reply with quoteBack to top

[TBC]-PaladinHeart wrote:
...oh, wait a second, can you actually change mine stats? I think you can modify hit points and such on items but im not sure if this works for traps or not. Could you give them more hit points, resistance, etc..?


No, you can't set those stats for a Mine. I'm not sure exactly how the game determines what resistances, HP, etc., that a mine has, but I think that it may be linked to the damage that the mine is set to do. As far as I can tell the Difficulty doesn't affect those stats, either.

OTB
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PaladinHeart
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 7:18 am Reply with quoteBack to top

OK but im picky about that stuff. I'll just have a trigger that kills the player if the mines die. HAH!

Ok maybe that's going a bit TOO far ;)
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PaladinHeart
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 7:35 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I had hoped to put a bunch of mines at a specific place to protect it until the player had obtained a specific character. If the player can simply fire at random to eliminate the mines (simply reloading from their last save every time they step on one) then that could essentially eliminate the necessity of the traps skill for disarming traps.

Oh wait.. trapped doors are a different story. Never mind :) I think I can have a very difficult trap on a door that instantly kills anyone trying to open it. That combined with the mines should do the trick of greatly discouraging the player from entry until they have the character.

Its hard to try and foresee every possible action a player might take to get around having to get a certain object and/or character to do the job. I can only make it as hard as possibly imaginable without too much "cheese" effect :-)
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Max-Violence
Wandering Hero
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 7:35 am Reply with quoteBack to top

OnTheCrack wrote:
requiem_for_a_3D_starfighter wrote:
Is this going to be a running gag now? : )


Ask "Max_Violence". :lol:


Yes, it is...
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requiem_for_a_starfury
Hero of the Wastes
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 9:33 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Max-Violence wrote:
Yes, it is...
*Sigh*

[TBC]-PaladinHeart wrote:
I had hoped to put a bunch of mines at a specific place to protect it until the player had obtained a specific character. If the player can simply fire at random to eliminate the mines (simply reloading from their last save every time they step on one) then that could essentially eliminate the necessity of the traps skill for disarming traps.
Here's a way to prevent mines from being detonated early by gunfire, and also to randomise their layout on subsequent playthroughs. But it's a bit time consuming.

Set your mines up off screen and give a different tag name to each one, i.e. mine1, mine2 etc (see what I mean about it being time consuming), then in your minefield set up individual waypoints i.e. mine1_wp, mine1a_wp, mine2_wp, mine2a_wp etc etc.

Then set up a zone around the minefield and triggers so that when the player enters the minefield the mines are moved to the waypoints. If you base your conditions on which team member enters the minefield first or hitpoints, experience or reputation etc then you can set up duplicate triggers to move a mine to either mine1_wp or mine1a_wp.

This way if you have opponents on either side of the minefield the mines won't be hit by stray bullets until they have been moved into position, and each time the player saves and reloads then the mines will probably be in a different position (unless the player plays exactly the same way each time or saves after the triggers have been fired).

For a little more variety to the positioning instead of a single zone around the minefield set up 4 zones (North, South, East & West) to create a box around the minefield. Each zone a wall of the box, then depending on which direction the player approaches the minefield as well as whatever other conditions you use the mines will be moved into different positions.


Last edited by requiem_for_a_starfury on Tue Feb 25, 2003 7:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PaladinHeart
Strider
Strider


Joined: 02 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 7:26 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

That is an interesting idea. I will have to consider this for some situations since it would add extra replay value. As for mine fields.. I may just have a lot of mines. After all, it can be expensive to fire at random just to deactivate mines when an easier method is available. (I will probably have a message pop up that they need a trap specialist)
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