Summary 1 - 2

[St. Toxic]

Summary of the "Is Fallout 3 going to be as good as the first two" thread.

After a handful of mostly negative comments Mister Leckie chipped in:

1) What does it matter if it's computer only? All I really care about is the quality of the game.

2) Fallout 3 will most likely be a great game. I have great confidence in Bethesda's ability to adapt to a different styles of game.

3) If you are expecting the same experience you had in Fallout/Fallout 2 you will be sorely dissapointed.

[[ Points against:

#1 : Mismatch -- Cross platform, ie NOT computer only, will inevitably lower the quality of the game since consoles just cant measure up to a PC in performance. http://www.xbreporter.com/xbox_system_s ... ations.php

#2 : Mismatch -- For point two, which is just an opinion or belief, all one need to say is: I don't.

#3 : Mismatch -- Also an opinion. Hard to find any facts against it. And we probably wont be dissapointed. We'll say: "We knew it, the bastards ruined it" But why must it not be a similar experience, it sure is possible to make games like FO & FO2. Its only a question about whether bethsoft are willing to make a real fallout game or not. We are doing our best to steer them in the right direction (away from the marketing department).

#1 : Koki -- Different architecture of PC and consoles. Both have certain limitations, and if you're making game for both you have double the limitations and zero bonuses.

Controller. Pad may be nice to catch the 18-22 frames to get out of the throw in a fighting game, but the less game relies on refexes and more on interface, the more pad sucks.
]]


Dogmeatlives was quick to point out that:

1) As many hardcore Fallout fans as there are now, there are ( at least ) thrice as many Elder Scroll fans. It's very possible that Bethesda feels comfortable with the market they are appealling to now and that they will make a Fallout game for the Elder Scroll fans, and if half of the Fallout fans like the game, then that's great for them. So basically there is no hope for die-hard turn-based Fallout fans.

[[ Points against:
#1 : Wolfman Walt -- Why are we going with the "Bethesoft = Success for video game sales" idea? For instance, their next project is "IHRA Drag Racing Sportsman Edition" and I can predict that game will have mediocre success at best. Believe it or not, the core fans of a product do have an effect, look at Fallout Tactics for instance. Once word got out that it wasn't a good product, sales dropped pretty sharply.]]

Terror strikes as Scumbag goes into berzerker mode:

1) You cannot change the course of Fallout 3 development. The only question is "Am I the kind of person that will likely consider Fallout 3 good?"

1b) People who have played Bethsoft's games will likely enjoy it, since there's no reason to assume that Bethsoft'll change their entire style for Fallout. Those are people that Fallout 3 is being sold to.

1c) If you like modern RPGs, you'll possibly like it, since, again, there's no reason to assume Bethsoft is going to ignore improvementsX to the genre since Fallout. Those are people that Fallout 3 is being sold to.

(( x1: everything that has made post-Fallout RPGs popular since Fallout came out, many of which heralded by Elder Scrolls games.
x2: the fact that supposed "mix-genré" games are actually considered RPGs is an example of the improvements to the genre. That which originally wasn't considered part of an RPG game are now considered by the popular majority to be inherent to the genre. ))

1d) If you remember Fallout from long ago, there's a good chance you'll like it.

1e) If you'd consider yourself a die-hard, hard-core Fallout fan, you might not like it. It's like when EJO commented that hard-core fans of the original BSG would prolly not like the new one.

2) A game is a consumer product. How can one not talk about success and failures of computer games without looking at their nature as consumer products?

2b) Mainstream gamers are so large as a demographic and so varied in opinion, that only the best games do well. Gamers know only about the best games.

2c) Today's 'kids' determine the evolution of gaming.

2d) Majority is right unless you're not part of the majority that was choosing in the first place.

3) System Shock 2 v.s Deus Ex is a perfect case of gaming evolution. What caused SS2 to flop was removed / revamped in Deus Ex, and transformed into something that worked; as will be done with Bethsofts F3.

4) Killable children will make consumers avoid buying the game.

4b) Killable children is inpopular.

4c) Most people don't know what Fallout is. The Fallout 3 name does not sell.

5) Attached three lists of gamesale statistics:
# http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_be ... ideo_games
# http://compsimgames.about.com/b/a/164553.htm
# http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/br ... 49-3429737

[[Points against:
#5, 4b, 4 : St. Toxic -- Sims had killable children and is the best selling pc game of all time.

#1c, (x1, x2) : St. Toxic -- ( On evolution of gaming ) Movies evolved out of Books. Books evolved out of Speech. Speech evoloved out of Music. Would you say, for instance, that Movies are an improvement over Speech? Or Books an improvement over Music? Would you consider one replaceable with the other? Are they all in the same genré?

Note: Pointing thus out that genrés do split into subgenrés. Overall, the example concerned communicative means, which in turn took their own paths and formed new genrés, which then formed their own genrés etc. Ideally games will do the same, in much less time than in the example. The genré RPG puts alot of games in the same basket, but only the ignorant gamer would imagine that they are not placed separately, apart from each other. Overall, there are no improvements to the rpg genré as a whole, just the previously stated hatching of new genrés. For instance the Best-selling PC Games section of the wiki has no mention of Ground Control, which at its release was considered (especially by gaming mags) one of the major improvements to the rts genré. Instead, Starcraft with it's outdated technology continued to sell shovels of it's shit, all the way to our modern area. ( 9 million in all )

The wikipedia is henceforth not allowed as a reference for information, unless it is confirmed and factual with a reference, as it's contents is easely alterable and highly debatable. The Fallouts ( among other games ) are now officially considered in it's own league among rpg's, pointing to the obvious differences between them and XRPG's of the modern era. Anyone who wishes to be an exception of that statement, may pm me his/her username.

#4, 4b : Box -- I can kill hookers in GTA.

Note: This debating for immorality as something the market will and does stand for.

#2,2b,2d : ApTyp -- You are confusing a game with a consumer product. Chasing the consumer market like a dog chasing its tale is not evolution. Consumers in general make poor gameplay designers.

Note: As to the "consumer product" statement, I will for now assume ApTyp means that a pack of crisps or a sneaker is not of the same depth as a computer game, and thus a computer game should not be accounted for as a mere product.

#4c : VasikkA -- ( Quoting IPL quarterly report - 2004-10-13 )

Interplay sold to Bethesda Softworks LLC, "Bethesda" the rights to develop FALLOUT 3 on all platforms for $1.175 million minimum guaranteed advance against royalties. Bethesda also has an option to develop two sequels, FALLOUT 4, and FALLOUT 5 for $1.0 million minimum guaranteed advance against royalties per sequel.

$1 million in advance + sales royalties per title. That's awful lot of money for a worthless brand. In case you didn't know, Bethesda wasn't the only company that took part in the auction for the Fallout licence. The fans of the series are more plentiful than you'd probably expect, Europe included.

#2b, 2d : VasikkA -- Marketing, as we know it, wouldn't exist because in your pretty world consumers would only buy the best quality.

#2b, 2d, 3 : Wolfman Walt -- Every statistics teacher would call you an idiot in unison for thinking that quanity is neccesarily casuastion to believe theres high quality of the product, or even correlates to each other neccesarily. This logic line leads into the argument that Titanic is the best movie of all time or that The Sims is the best game made to date. Just because something sells more then another thing doesn't make it inherantly better.

Note: 2b is in all a conflicting statement. That the largest demographic can't agree on what quality really is, and thus only the highest quality products survive is about as illogical as can be, especially with the added note of gamers only knowing about the best games. The clash between mainstream competitors with high end marketting budgets, adds to bury less known titles, undepending on their quality. Big names cast shadow on smaller names. Weight of word against weight of game, word is the obvious winner. Only with truly innovative game structure do less known games occasionally surface in the big pond, this conflicting with statements 1c, 2b, 2c, 2d.

The sales angle is so stupid, that it is henceforth banned from "Fallout 3 and the future" unless it comes directly from an employee of Bethsoft or stated otherwise.]]


As you may have noticed, there are alot of holes in points against. In some time I will be filling these from older threads, in which discussions like these have ensued quite often enough. In the meantime you can do the same, or add new points ( both for and against ), or further continue discussion prefferably as per the rules in the New Moderation thread. You are welcome to report any errors in this summary, but by pm and not in this thread. Summarizing will affect most of the FO3ATF threads.


Thank you.

[St. Toxic]

Summary of "What Oblivion taught us -Section B"

Suddenly Scumbag drops a load:

1) M'aiq explained why there's no children in Oblivion. It'd be a publicity nightmare if they had kids around that could be shot/killed/etc. The era where a game company could get away with allowing the player to sledgehammer a child in the head is gone.
1b) What did Oblivion teach us? Bethesda makes good games, and judging by how well both the PC and Xbox versions are doing, they know their market.

2) A game does not need kids/ killable kids, outside of "shock value".

2b) Has there been a game that lets players kill children, in recent memory, to the exent Fallout did? I can't remember any. Wonder why?

2c) Killable children would likely prevent the game from being sold at the major stores, meaning the ones bitching would prevent anyone from buying it.

2d) Britney Spears proved that if a commercial endeavour finds a market, the endeavour did something right.

2e)
x1: Fallout 3: Kill Innocent Children ( Fallout 3 with killable children ) doesn't have a market.
x2: "Fallout 3: Killing Kids is Kewl" ( Fallout 3 with killable children ) wouldn't be a game that the general market would want. Stores not selling this game would be a publice service.


3)
x1: When it comes to modern games, children don't exist in worlds in which a player can slaughter them.
x2: No modern company'll create a game where kids are your enemies, and you're supposed to kill them.
x3: If you desperately need to kill children in a computer game to enjoy it, make one yourself

3b)
x1: I don't need to see kids to convince me a game's world is alive.
x2: I don't need to be able to kill children to consider it a good game.

3c)
x1: When it comes to killing children, choice should be restricted.
x2: I'd go as far as to say that games that prevent me from even accidentally murder children are better than those that allow it.
x3: Any children that are there are supposed to not be killed. If they aren't being killed, they shouldn't be placed into situations where they can be killed.
x4: Child-killing in FO3 (it won't exist, but if it did) should be a un-removably 10,000 gold bounty at all times. That way, doing such a thing immediately prevents any progression in the game. It's the only punishment that would work.
x5: Kill a kid, massive fine that will doom your game. Your choice. Obviously, players will choose the correct actions.
x6: There's Evil, and there's Evil You Don't Do.

4) ( In response to "Whatever happened to making good games over market appeal?" ) It's still there.
4b) -ll- Good games are still being made, as evidenced by the fact that computer gaming has grown considerably as games have become more and more mainstream.
4c) -ll- If there's market appeal for a game, there's some demographic that considers that type of game good.
4d) It's your opinion that Bethesda makes bad games and is not matched by similar ones to be statistically important.

4e) Halo is a rather good game.

4f) Do you think most people will be offended if :

- Super Mutants have children
- if the Ghouls don't 'rot out'
- if Fallout 3 allows the player, not some numbers, to determine if I can peg that bandit in the forehead from 200 feet away
- if I can freely move anywhere, instead of tiles

4g) If most gamers don't get offended by something, there's no point in complaining about it's loss.

4h) If I had to guess, they'd shoot for the original age rating, or its modern equivalent, but remove the most egregious of things, like killing kids.

5) If people who liked Fallout 1 and 2 were the only people FO3 was being made for thet game would be called Van Buren, and we both know how that worked out.
5b) Bethesda won't take "Fallout-fan diehards" opinions into consideration.

Note: Edited because Scumbag writes like a crazy person.

5c) Tactics didn't do that badly. ( In response to Fallout fan influence being a factor of the game's success )

5d) Oblivion conveyed something to the player. Off the top of my head: the idea that a government would send a prisoner to a backwater to impersonate religious figures. Three major houses promoting Unethical Liberalism, Traditionalism, or Appeasement, and the interactions between the three concepts. Major murder investigations in which the assumed killer doesn't care if you judge him. Patrons that don't tell you the truth until you've done a horribly evil. A bad guy you can debate philosphy with.

No doubt you'll dismiss these. Fortunately, the same can be done with a game in which backing Killian gave you the Happy Ending, and Gizmo always gave you the Unhappy Ending.

5e) Fallout 1 & 2 can be viewed as art, and untouchable. Fortunately, this is an opinion not shared by those that develop FO3, nor by the bulk of people who'll be buying FO3.

5f) Fallout canon should be altered. Want super mutants to be able to breed? Make a child Super Mutant model. Instant "Vree is wrong". As long as the game offers a reason for the change that works to the general player base, it can work.

6) Van Buren was a copy of Fallout 1 & Fallout 2.

6b) Beth have a whole bunch of people like me, and a ton of people who don't even know what Fallout is, so they can do whatever they want and get away with it.

6c) Sims, UT, DX:IW, HL, HL2, D3 are successful games made for everyone.

6d) The ES games give freedom to make bad choices ( a choice with a clear, detremental Majorly Bad Result to it ).

7) Windows is doing a lot more things right than, say, Linux ( because it makes more money ).

7b) The game, concept, and world are seperate from its mechanics and technology.

Note: This statement is inaccurate. Mechanics and technology are part of game and world. Beth also intend to use SPECIAL, in what way unspecified, but a part of the mechanics and technology of previous Fallouts.

7c)
x1: Doesn't matter if Fallout is isometric.
x2: Doesn't matter if its turn based or real time or real-time-with-pause.
x3: Doesn't matter if they have to retcon Fallout from "all research stopped in the 50s" to "all research stopped in the 70s" to make it connect with the player base.

Note: This statement is inaccurate, in combination with 7b. For instance, x3 is not a part of mechanics and technology, but game, concept and world.

7d) Quality is a personal, pointless determinant. There is only success (or lack thereof) and popularity (or lack there of).

7e) DE2:IW sold well because they found what modern gamers wanted, and removed what they didn't. For every sale they lost on the PC version, they gained 2 from the console version.

[[ Points against:

#2, 2b, 2c, 2e, 3, 3b, 3c, 4h : St. Toxic -- Children exist, and a world without children is a crippled world. Crippled world my friend, makes a crippled player. So you have to convince the player that this world is alive and in good health, by forging it like the real one. If the kids are gone for a logical reason, then fighting to save the world becomes quite trite and pointless. The game will then perhaps be about jumping off a cliff, since all hope for mankind is lost.

#2, 2b, 2c, 2e, 3, 3b, 3c, 4g, 4h : St. Toxic -- Sims had killable children and is the best selling pc game of all time.

#2, 2b, 2c, 2e, 3, 3b, 3c, 4g, 4h : VasikkA -- Thinking children in games are there just so you can kill them is a bit perverted. What makes you think that? Baldur's Gate had children that you could kill. Fallout is the only game I can think of where killing a child had consequences. Not only you got a reaction penalty every time you initiated a conversation, but some NPCs refused to cooperate with you or even attacked you on sight.
Examples of having the "Childkiller" reputation in Fallout(taken from a walkthrough ( http://user.tninet.se/~jyg699a/fallout.html ):

After your first conversation with Razlo he will refuse to speak with you if you are a Childkiller or Berserker.

On the Followers map there's a house with bounty hunters to the northwest. They'll attack on sight only if you're a Childkiller.

Lasher will attack if you're holding a weapon, or if you're a Berserker or Childkiller

The fifth will only deal significant damage if you're a Berserker and/or a Childkiller[corridor of flesh in Cathedral]

If your character is a Berserker or Childkiller, or has the Bloody Mess perk or low karma (-2 or less), you'll automatically draw a gun (in fact a 10mm Pistol is newly created for you) and shoot the Overseer as he's walking away

The fisherman will give you a Rad-X if your karma is between -30 and 29 inclusive, unless you're a Childkiller or he finds you generally offensive.

If you're a Childkiller you'll probably run into Avellone the bounty hunter on the world map, whereupon he tries to kill you.


The childkiller reputation gave you similar reactions in Fallout 2.

#2, 2b, 2c, 2e, 3, 3b, 3c, 4g, 4h : Mismatch -- Kids werent you enemies in fallout, they were just a pain in the ass (in the Den). And, since killing them was usually a bad idea, you tried not to. Its about the freedom as a player. And I cant see any good reason not to put them in, as long as you dont encourage killing them. Which they did not do in FO1&&2. The game isnt there to take any moral standpoint, its there to provide you with possibilities and somewhat real consequences, not to decide what is right or wrong. The consequences may only be derived by what is considered ok in the game world, and the 'punishment' should feel realistic in that world.

#2, 2b, 2c, 2e, 3, 3b, 3c, 4g, 4h : Koki -- In Bioshock children are "the gatherers", and while they are not aggresive, they posess certain things which are essential to advance your character. From what I figured, the moral standpoint of killing them for your own profit will be exploited by the game.

#5 : Koki -- Van Buren was axed because Black Isle was led by a retard. The game was not even finished.

#5 : St. Toxic -- Van Buren fiddled with special, among other things, to simplify the gameplay. The general stance is, and if not, should be "It wasn't going in the right direction."

Note: This is now the official stance of the FO3ATF forums. If you wish to be the exception, and mentioned as such in this note, pm me your user name. But I don't want to see any brainy comebacks when Van Buren gets bashed. Cry in silence or don't cry at all.]]

As you may have noticed, there are alot of holes in points against. In some time I will be filling these from older threads, in which discussions like these have ensued quite often enough. In the meantime you can do the same, or add new points ( both for and against ), or further continue discussion prefferably as per the rules in the New Moderation thread. You are welcome to report any errors in this summary, but by pm and not in this thread. Summarizing will affect most of the FO3ATF threads.


Thank you.

[4too]

Bethesda Business Model



From other thread.

How to make friends and influence people.
The power of cynical realism.
When one quotes from the game industry's 'horse's mouth' one quotes from ""THE BAG"".

Once was:
http://www.duckandcover.cx/forums/viewt ... c&start=80

Now quoting from St. Toxic's above:
scumbag:

... 7d) Quality is a personal, pointless determinant. There is only success (or lack thereof) and popularity (or lack there of). ...

That's a sentiment worthy of Machiavelli. Define all terms and declare victory. Winner take all.

So.

The success and popularity of Bethesda's Oblivion does not hinge on ""personal, pointless determinant""(-s) such as quality.

Therefore.

The success and popularity of Bethesda's FO 3 will not hinge on ""personal, pointless determinant""(-s) such as quality.



Success and popularity will be a beauty contest. The best ''winner'' will be a spokes model, runway walking through worthy PR appearances. Her best assets 'dressed down' and her youth and spirit of optimism crippled by audience expectations.` Her heart felt and meaningful commentary on the condition of the human race, tuper ware, lip gloss, ... and world peace,
will be superimposed on her winning bump and grind video in the 'bathing suit competition'.
The hard ball question: what is your favorite color of lip gloss?

The publishing of Oblivion with the ""leveling flaw"' is part of this successful business model.
The game play was 'good' enough to ship.
Whether this 'good' game could be a 'great' game is still in question. It is left to the MOD-S to make it great.
'Good enough' is deemed 'good enough ' for who it's for, you, me, and the under dressed horse we rode in on.
Great game play was not the product in the boxes shipped, and or, sold.
Great game play is a state of mind in Oblivion,
.... not a state of being,
.....not even a state of becoming,
.....but a 'feel good' state of mind, an illusion of agreement.
Feel good? Of course you do!
Success and popularity,
as spoon fed by marketing and force fed by ecstatic reviews, --- the feeling good about choices of entertainment ---,
the agreement,
was the proven product shipped, and or, sold.

The game play was 'good' enough to ship.
Blame the usual suspects ...
Crippled code is the industry standard.
Bliss ninny reviewers will coo and gush and lead the stampede to the shelves.
Third parties will mod in the fixes with the included construction kit, for free.

If Oblivion wasn't -- fun --, blame the victim, blame the consumer.

Bethesda will repeat their successful business model for FO 3.

Time and titles march on. Direct comparisons with FO 1 and 2, and Bethesda's FO 3 may not be valid or fair. It may become a symposium on the enjoyment of the game play. Good, better, best may be how well a player translates the game experience to forum debates, with or with out expletive features.
Bethesda's FO 3 will have to stand on it's own Radiant AI, and comparisons to contemporary FP Shooters.

Bethesda will repeat their successful business model for FO 3.

At some calculated business point. The game play will be determined 'good' enough to ship. The quality assurance will stop. The marketing packages will be delivered. The very promise of a game in the box will still be in doubt, but Included will be the feel good phrases 'all games have issues', a mod will fix all ...

Bethesda will repeat their successful business model for FO 3.

A good game may ship, a popular success for Bethesda, measured in gushing reviews and units shipped, but the consumer, may not find a good game in the box with out Bethesda's patented 'feel good' mantra, and the age appropriate drug of preference ... sugar, caffeine, acid, peer pressure, or, prozac.

If mediocre enough, the 'good' game FO 3 may only be remembered as a variation on a theme. Hum a few bars and we could all try and fake the melody.

And remember children, {sings} "Bethesda, loves you, this we know, 'cause the scumbag tells us so ... "

Feel good? Of course you do!

Mr. Machiavelli Man, good old self deprecating, self forum tagged -- scumbag, thanks for the cynical heads up on how the gaming industry works, you the weann-ah, ... what is your favorite color of lip gloss?

Feel good? Of course you do!





4too