After a handful of mostly negative comments Mister Leckie chipped in:
1) What does it matter if it's computer only? All I really care about is the quality of the game.
2) Fallout 3 will most likely be a great game. I have great confidence in Bethesda's ability to adapt to a different styles of game.
3) If you are expecting the same experience you had in Fallout/Fallout 2 you will be sorely dissapointed.
[[ Points against:
#1 : Mismatch -- Cross platform, ie NOT computer only, will inevitably lower the quality of the game since consoles just cant measure up to a PC in performance. http://www.xbreporter.com/xbox_system_s ... ations.php
#2 : Mismatch -- For point two, which is just an opinion or belief, all one need to say is: I don't.
#3 : Mismatch -- Also an opinion. Hard to find any facts against it. And we probably wont be dissapointed. We'll say: "We knew it, the bastards ruined it" But why must it not be a similar experience, it sure is possible to make games like FO & FO2. Its only a question about whether bethsoft are willing to make a real fallout game or not. We are doing our best to steer them in the right direction (away from the marketing department).
#1 : Koki -- Different architecture of PC and consoles. Both have certain limitations, and if you're making game for both you have double the limitations and zero bonuses.
Controller. Pad may be nice to catch the 18-22 frames to get out of the throw in a fighting game, but the less game relies on refexes and more on interface, the more pad sucks.
]]
Dogmeatlives was quick to point out that:
[[ Points against:1) As many hardcore Fallout fans as there are now, there are ( at least ) thrice as many Elder Scroll fans. It's very possible that Bethesda feels comfortable with the market they are appealling to now and that they will make a Fallout game for the Elder Scroll fans, and if half of the Fallout fans like the game, then that's great for them. So basically there is no hope for die-hard turn-based Fallout fans.
#1 : Wolfman Walt -- Why are we going with the "Bethesoft = Success for video game sales" idea? For instance, their next project is "IHRA Drag Racing Sportsman Edition" and I can predict that game will have mediocre success at best. Believe it or not, the core fans of a product do have an effect, look at Fallout Tactics for instance. Once word got out that it wasn't a good product, sales dropped pretty sharply.]]
Terror strikes as Scumbag goes into berzerker mode:
[[Points against:1) You cannot change the course of Fallout 3 development. The only question is "Am I the kind of person that will likely consider Fallout 3 good?"
1b) People who have played Bethsoft's games will likely enjoy it, since there's no reason to assume that Bethsoft'll change their entire style for Fallout. Those are people that Fallout 3 is being sold to.
1c) If you like modern RPGs, you'll possibly like it, since, again, there's no reason to assume Bethsoft is going to ignore improvementsX to the genre since Fallout. Those are people that Fallout 3 is being sold to.
(( x1: everything that has made post-Fallout RPGs popular since Fallout came out, many of which heralded by Elder Scrolls games.
x2: the fact that supposed "mix-genré" games are actually considered RPGs is an example of the improvements to the genre. That which originally wasn't considered part of an RPG game are now considered by the popular majority to be inherent to the genre. ))
1d) If you remember Fallout from long ago, there's a good chance you'll like it.
1e) If you'd consider yourself a die-hard, hard-core Fallout fan, you might not like it. It's like when EJO commented that hard-core fans of the original BSG would prolly not like the new one.
2) A game is a consumer product. How can one not talk about success and failures of computer games without looking at their nature as consumer products?
2b) Mainstream gamers are so large as a demographic and so varied in opinion, that only the best games do well. Gamers know only about the best games.
2c) Today's 'kids' determine the evolution of gaming.
2d) Majority is right unless you're not part of the majority that was choosing in the first place.
3) System Shock 2 v.s Deus Ex is a perfect case of gaming evolution. What caused SS2 to flop was removed / revamped in Deus Ex, and transformed into something that worked; as will be done with Bethsofts F3.
4) Killable children will make consumers avoid buying the game.
4b) Killable children is inpopular.
4c) Most people don't know what Fallout is. The Fallout 3 name does not sell.
5) Attached three lists of gamesale statistics:
# http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_be ... ideo_games
# http://compsimgames.about.com/b/a/164553.htm
# http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/br ... 49-3429737
#5, 4b, 4 : St. Toxic -- Sims had killable children and is the best selling pc game of all time.
#1c, (x1, x2) : St. Toxic -- ( On evolution of gaming ) Movies evolved out of Books. Books evolved out of Speech. Speech evoloved out of Music. Would you say, for instance, that Movies are an improvement over Speech? Or Books an improvement over Music? Would you consider one replaceable with the other? Are they all in the same genré?
Note: Pointing thus out that genrés do split into subgenrés. Overall, the example concerned communicative means, which in turn took their own paths and formed new genrés, which then formed their own genrés etc. Ideally games will do the same, in much less time than in the example. The genré RPG puts alot of games in the same basket, but only the ignorant gamer would imagine that they are not placed separately, apart from each other. Overall, there are no improvements to the rpg genré as a whole, just the previously stated hatching of new genrés. For instance the Best-selling PC Games section of the wiki has no mention of Ground Control, which at its release was considered (especially by gaming mags) one of the major improvements to the rts genré. Instead, Starcraft with it's outdated technology continued to sell shovels of it's shit, all the way to our modern area. ( 9 million in all )
The wikipedia is henceforth not allowed as a reference for information, unless it is confirmed and factual with a reference, as it's contents is easely alterable and highly debatable. The Fallouts ( among other games ) are now officially considered in it's own league among rpg's, pointing to the obvious differences between them and XRPG's of the modern era. Anyone who wishes to be an exception of that statement, may pm me his/her username.
#4, 4b : Box -- I can kill hookers in GTA.
Note: This debating for immorality as something the market will and does stand for.
#2,2b,2d : ApTyp -- You are confusing a game with a consumer product. Chasing the consumer market like a dog chasing its tale is not evolution. Consumers in general make poor gameplay designers.
Note: As to the "consumer product" statement, I will for now assume ApTyp means that a pack of crisps or a sneaker is not of the same depth as a computer game, and thus a computer game should not be accounted for as a mere product.
#4c : VasikkA -- ( Quoting IPL quarterly report - 2004-10-13 )
$1 million in advance + sales royalties per title. That's awful lot of money for a worthless brand. In case you didn't know, Bethesda wasn't the only company that took part in the auction for the Fallout licence. The fans of the series are more plentiful than you'd probably expect, Europe included.Interplay sold to Bethesda Softworks LLC, "Bethesda" the rights to develop FALLOUT 3 on all platforms for $1.175 million minimum guaranteed advance against royalties. Bethesda also has an option to develop two sequels, FALLOUT 4, and FALLOUT 5 for $1.0 million minimum guaranteed advance against royalties per sequel.
#2b, 2d : VasikkA -- Marketing, as we know it, wouldn't exist because in your pretty world consumers would only buy the best quality.
#2b, 2d, 3 : Wolfman Walt -- Every statistics teacher would call you an idiot in unison for thinking that quanity is neccesarily casuastion to believe theres high quality of the product, or even correlates to each other neccesarily. This logic line leads into the argument that Titanic is the best movie of all time or that The Sims is the best game made to date. Just because something sells more then another thing doesn't make it inherantly better.
Note: 2b is in all a conflicting statement. That the largest demographic can't agree on what quality really is, and thus only the highest quality products survive is about as illogical as can be, especially with the added note of gamers only knowing about the best games. The clash between mainstream competitors with high end marketting budgets, adds to bury less known titles, undepending on their quality. Big names cast shadow on smaller names. Weight of word against weight of game, word is the obvious winner. Only with truly innovative game structure do less known games occasionally surface in the big pond, this conflicting with statements 1c, 2b, 2c, 2d.
The sales angle is so stupid, that it is henceforth banned from "Fallout 3 and the future" unless it comes directly from an employee of Bethsoft or stated otherwise.]]
As you may have noticed, there are alot of holes in points against. In some time I will be filling these from older threads, in which discussions like these have ensued quite often enough. In the meantime you can do the same, or add new points ( both for and against ), or further continue discussion prefferably as per the rules in the New Moderation thread. You are welcome to report any errors in this summary, but by pm and not in this thread. Summarizing will affect most of the FO3ATF threads.
Thank you.