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Stevie D
Wanderer
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Joined: 05 Aug 2002
Posts: 427
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:37 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Sublime, xbow.
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xbow
Vault Elite
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Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 337
Location: Mojave Desert

PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 6:48 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

thanks for the kudo bro.

I only wish I had the tenacity for triggering that I do for slapping tiles together. By the time i am done with a map I am so sick of looking at it that i have to tuck it away for awhile before I complete it and hope that I dont forget the scenario I imagined.
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requiem_for_a_starfury
Hero of the Wastes
Hero of the Wastes


Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1820

PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:36 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Triggering is the fun part, but I know what you mean about getting sick of a map. Usually it's by the time I get halfway through the detail work I start to lose interest.
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xbow
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Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 337
Location: Mojave Desert

PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:20 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I couldn't agree more bro. it so much damn fun to lay down a zone set up a players index, way points, conditions and actions etc, plant the enemy in likely locations and then load it up and test it. Its a kick to see a map that you have made come alive. Its especially nice when it functions correctly on the first test run. Of course you can't play baseball (or cricket) without a field so tile seting is a necessary evil.
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Retlaw83
Goatse Messiah
Goatse Messiah


Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Posts: 5327

PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:31 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Here's a new version of Borderton, now with a wall comprised of clips provided by XBow:

http://img155.exs.cx/img155/1996/start00005vo.jpg

Also, would anyone think it cheap of me to predominantly use abandoned maps in order to flesh out my mod?
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requiem_for_a_starfury
Hero of the Wastes
Hero of the Wastes


Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1820

PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 3:51 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

How do you mean abandonded? As in other people's maps from the graveyard? If so then that was the intended purpose of the Graveyard to provide a resource for other people to use.
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Retlaw83
Goatse Messiah
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Joined: 17 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:06 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I meant the graveyard, but I was wondering if I would, I don't know, be looked down upon for scavenging too much.
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requiem_for_a_starfury
Hero of the Wastes
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Joined: 29 Oct 2002
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:32 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Well if your story/scripting is good enough I don't think people will really care. How much of a ratio would it be, between your maps and ones you've reclaimed?
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Jimmyjay86
Hero of the Glowing Lands
Hero of the Glowing Lands


Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 2102
Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:21 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

The tilework is not much more than a blank canvas to tell a story with. It's really the entities, speeches, triggers and other assorted scripting which will bring a map to life. Even with the same tilework, two different mappers can make an entirely different scenario. I wish [ROE]-Snake would have understood this. I tried to explain that he didn't need mappers to make a campaign work very well. All he needed to do was to use the existing maps from the core campaign or even random encounters to make something. I really want to use the Buena Vista map with only slight modifications to make something entirely different and fun to play. The roof of that structure and the nearby cliffs begs for some interesting scenario.
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Retlaw83
Goatse Messiah
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Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Posts: 5327

PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:32 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Okay, cool.

I'm probably using Deliverance with virtually no modification, and parts of OTBs New Reno map and his Vault map. I'm also probably going to splice parts of the town in the first Reaver mission and Cold Water together. I guess, thinking about it, I can feel free to gank all kinds of clips out of the campaign to make original-looking maps, too.

I think the main problem with [ROE]-Snake's thinking - and my thinking to some extent - is that in most modding communities someone is expected to make maps from scratch without copy and pasting elements from other people's work. In the FoT community, however, that sharing is encouraged, mostly due to MicroForte's EULA.

Speaking of MicroForte, I was reading in a post by Section 8 that a combat armor character sprite was one of the first made for Tactics 2. Since they wouldn't give it up for free, what does anyone think our chances of BUYING it from them would be if we ask real nice? If it comes down to it (since it might be Interplay property) maybe we could work out a deal with the needy Herve.
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Jimmyjay86
Hero of the Glowing Lands
Hero of the Glowing Lands


Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 2102
Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 12:00 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Retlaw83 wrote:

Speaking of MicroForte, I was reading in a post by Section 8 that a combat armor character sprite was one of the first made for Tactics 2. Since they wouldn't give it up for free, what does anyone think our chances of BUYING it from them would be if we ask real nice? If it comes down to it (since it might be Interplay property) maybe we could work out a deal with the needy Herve.


Extremely doubtful that any artwork exists anymore. I can't believe John D. would save anything from FOT on disk somewhere for any future use. If I understand the industry correctly, most everything from early, outdated games is dumped in the wastebasket. It might be worth sending off some emails to John D. but I never recieved a response from any of the requests I sent to him. OTOH, last week while doing Google searches for artists involved with FOT I have found artwork I never saw before.
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requiem_for_a_starfury
Hero of the Wastes
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Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1820

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 12:57 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Retlaw83 wrote:
I'm probably using Deliverance with virtually no modification, and parts of OTBs New Reno map and his Vault map. I'm also probably going to splice parts of the town in the first Reaver mission and Cold Water together. I guess, thinking about it, I can feel free to gank all kinds of clips out of the campaign to make original-looking maps, too.
Deathground was OTB's Psuedo SAD map, and I'm using parts of his New Reno map for a town, though by the time I'm finished with what I've got planned for it not even OTB will recognise it.

I've joined two landscape maps from the main campaign joined together to make a special encounter map, though I'll change it around some and I'm using some other of the landscape maps for various bits and pieces, so don't be afraid to lift directly from the main campaign.

This is one of the most important missions in my campaign and it's mostly made from clips.



Retlaw83 wrote:
I think the main problem with [ROE]-Snake's thinking - and my thinking to some extent - is that in most modding communities someone is expected to make maps from scratch without copy and pasting elements from other people's work. In the FoT community, however, that sharing is encouraged, mostly due to MicroForte's EULA.
I think this community would of died along time ago if we followed the same way of thinking as the modding communities from other games.

Jimmyjay86 wrote:
It might be worth sending off some emails to John D. but I never recieved a response from any of the requests I sent to him.
Did the Hotwheels sprites work in FOT without modification (I know they were too small)? I remember we had to edit the tiles before we could use them but did the Hotwheels sprites work? If so perhaps we should be asking them to release the hotwheels editors. icon_wink
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xbow
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Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 337
Location: Mojave Desert

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:13 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Requiem that Map fucking ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


ahem....onward!


Jimmyjay86 wrote:
The tile work is not much more than a blank canvas to tell a story with. It's really the entities, speeches, triggers and other assorted scripting which will bring a map to life.


I agree and disagree (wow how decisive) You could have two identical scenarios one takes place on a map that is featureless except for the critical buildings and opportunities to take cover and the other that takes place in a highly detailed map. The appearance of the map contributes or detracts from to the players ability to become immersed in the game.

It is also absolutely true that without an equal (or greater) amount of attention paid to the triggers, entities, speech, scripting, etc the scenario will suck. you could have a great scenario on a plain map if the triggers, entities, and scenario etc are cool . But the most highly detailed map cant cover for suckie triggering , speech etc.

Real world proof if is this, When you create a tank combat scenario for live fire training you want the realism high, as high as possible. You want to provide as realistic appearance to the targets and structures as possible or it wont be taken seriously.

That’s why they build huge realistic MOUT complexes for MILES force on force training and intricate moving target ranges on MPRC’s for live fire training that include targets that look like threat targets. Take a look at what goes on at the NTC at ft Irwin Ca. in the force on force training. OP4 vehicles that look like enemy vehicles OP4 personnel wearing enemy uniforms everything must closely represent what your likely enemy is all about or, it will be a joke. It is also true that a bad scenario played out in a realistic environment will blow chunks way worse than a good one on a more abstract playing field.

I agree with the fact that taking the great maps, clips etc from the core scenario and making a new scenario is a damn good idea. That’s why they have the delete entities and other tools of mass destruction isn’t it? It doesn't take much time to move a few things around make some cosmetic changes add or subtract buildings plant clips to make a core map work for you.


Notes:

MOUT = Military Operations On Urbanized Terrain
MILES = Multiple Integrated Laser Engagement System
OP4 = Opposing Force
MPRC= Multi Purpose Range Complex.
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OnTheBounce
TANSTAAFL
TANSTAAFL


Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 2257
Location: Grafenwoehr, Oberpfalz, Bayern, Deutschland

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:23 am Reply with quoteBack to top

xbow wrote:
...The appearance of the map contributes or detracts from to the players ability to become immersed in the game.


I disagree. You can immerse yourself in Tetris, Checkers or any number of other games that are pure abstractions, and those of us that were playing games back when EGA graphics were the hottest thing around know that you could play what passed for RPGs w/those eye-grating colors and still become immersed in it. Immersion is a function of how engaging a game is, not the eye-candy factor.

xbow wrote:
Real world proof if is this, When you create a tank combat scenario for live fire training you want the realism high, as high as possible. You want to provide as realistic appearance to the targets and structures as possible or it wont be taken seriously.

That’s why they build huge realistic MOUT complexes for MILES force on force training and intricate moving target ranges on MPRC’s for live fire training that include targets that look like threat targets. Take a look at what goes on at the NTC at ft Irwin Ca. in the force on force training. OP4 vehicles that look like enemy vehicles OP4 personnel wearing enemy uniforms everything must closely represent what your likely enemy is all about or, it will be a joke. It is also true that a bad scenario played out in a realistic environment will blow chunks way worse than a good one on a more abstract playing field.


Been there, done all of those things and I'm going to tell you that you're missing the point. You're comparing apples to oranges, comitting a fallacy of relevance. The point of FoT isn't to provide realistic training, which an ARTEP/MOUT course/NTC rotation/etc. are all designed to do. FoT isn't about realism, just like games aren't about realism. If that's what you're after head down to the local UCOFT or some other simulator and get some training in. This isn't training; it's entertainment.

Oh, BTW, I'd also like to point out that training at the NTC is set up to be harder than actual engagements. You show me an army from some banana republic that fights like the OPFOR does and I'll suck your dick and ask for seconds.

Cheers,

OTB
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Retlaw83
Goatse Messiah
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Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Posts: 5327

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:30 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I've made a map by stapling together one of the Assault multiplayer maps and the Motorsports CTF map. Oddly enough, this setup follows the general layout of Zelienople, Pennsylvania, as it is now.

I'll post pics later.
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quietfanatic
Respected
Respected


Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 88
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:57 am Reply with quoteBack to top

OnTheBounce wrote:
xbow wrote:
...The appearance of the map contributes or detracts from to the players ability to become immersed in the game.


I disagree. You can immerse yourself in Tetris, Checkers or any number of other games that are pure abstractions, and those of us that were playing games back when EGA graphics were the hottest thing around know that you could play what passed for RPGs w/those eye-grating colors and still become immersed in it. Immersion is a function of how engaging a game is, not the eye-candy factor.


Of course 'eye candy' isn't the only factor, but it is an neccessary tool for creating a real world in which you can be immersed. Without it you need more text, music, characterisation etc. to create an engaging atmosphere. For FoT the appearance of the map is a very important component for shaping an engaging mission, as it is not just about abstract skill, but also role playing.
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xbow
Vault Elite
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Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 337
Location: Mojave Desert

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 7:04 am Reply with quoteBack to top

OnTHeBounce wrote:
Oh, BTW, I'd also like to point out that training at the NTC is set up to be harder than actual engagements. You show me an army from some banana republic that fights like the OPFOR does and I'll suck your dick and ask for seconds.


Gakkkk!! I don't want you to suck my dick....And I have been there and done that shit CAX/CALFEX/tables/NTC etc and all that shit more than a few times myself.

Now, you know I can't do that, but do you suggest that we train to fight enemies that surrender and collapse the instant a round is fired at them? of course you don't. No one fights like OP4, those poor bastards live in the field and they know the place like it was their backyard (which it is). They also have the deck stacked against the visiting unit from the get go. If they start to get their asses kicked they just pull another rabbit out of the hat. (do those guys still have the highest divorce rate in the Atmy?)

They throw more stuff at you than you would ever see in reality (unless you are going against a reinforced cold war era Soviet Motorized Rifle Regiment) to increase the pucker factor. You are so busy that you are bound to step on your crank if your shit isn't in one bag, that is how they try to simulate the stress of combat. The best thing is that NTC weeds out ZEROS (officers) in command positions that cant walk and chew bubbel gum at the same time..good riddance. TRADOC is full of em! Muhahahaha!! Its bad enough at NTC for an RA unit but in the case of National Guard those poor critters leave that place unable to get a hardon for a month.

But I know what you are saying but in humble opinion NTC isn't really harder because a real combat tour even in a 'Banana Republic' is a year long and that gives people plenty of time to get complacent, sloppy, and stupid. In the final analysis NTC isn't real. No real buddies being put in bags no tanks to clean out that are filled with the burned remains of a crew. No looking at the face of some poor fuck that had a chunk of his mouth and jaw shot off and worst of all no long periods of nothing happening. You know the deal, If I read you right you have been all the way around the block at least once.


OnTheBounce wrote:
You're comparing apples to oranges


Probably so but Its just my religion 'tank gunnery' and my Mike Golf nature that drives me to be a little anal....on rare occasions.

I know FOT isn't training but I like to play on good maps with enough detail in them to give ME a warm and fuzzy. For me and many others a good terrain model is not just eye candy its a necessary part of the whole FOT experience..it is for me anyway.

It seems to me that you make some nice sweet detailed maps bro why do you go to all that trouble? Could it be that you like something that is real enough for you to get a warm and fuzzy?

In any case Have a good time in Germany by the way are you a 19K, 19D, 11M, other (Mine = 1812 that's USMC for 19K). I hope you don't get so immersed in the training that you wont find time to do the FOT thing. best wishes.

I posted something for you here OTB HVKEM_LOSAT a little movie this thing is really old news but it will eventually find its way on top of a HUMMER......scary for a tanker enjoy!..man i would give my left nut to land a job at Aberdeen.
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Retlaw83
Goatse Messiah
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Joined: 17 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:46 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Here's Zelienople. This map is made from the Downtown assault map and the Motorsports CTF map, and is part of main street:

http://img150.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img150&image=zelie00012tp.jpg

I just need to add the remnants of the Kaufman House at the first intersection, and remove the superfluous road in between the two intersections.

Also, since it's missing an intersection right after the bridge (which in real life would cross the Connoquenessing Creek) U.S. Route 68 doesn't exist in the Fallout universe for all intents and purposes. icon_wink
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xbow
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Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 337
Location: Mojave Desert

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:20 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Nice! sweet looking map bro. Hey Zelienople is the town where the TV station was brodcasting from in Night Of The Living Dead 1990.
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Retlaw83
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Joined: 17 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:13 am Reply with quoteBack to top

All of the Living Dead movies - with the exception of the Dawn remake, and the new one - were shot in the Pittsburgh area.
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